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Server Time: 11/21/2008 5:51:43 PM PACIFIC |
 Pre-Flop vs. Post Flop Play, Guru, 21. Jun 2003 13:47 | ||
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| Here's some food for thought. It seems to me, both from watching WPT and personal experience, that the nature of poker has changed a great deal with the influx of new players. Probably most people will say, "Duh!". Here's my question though. One of he changes I think is happening is that players, even good ones, are focusing more on post flop play than ever before. It used to be that players concentrated on playing top starting ands and taking control before the flop. I think now players, even the top ones, have widened their starting requirements and have focused more on winning after the flop than used to be the case. It also seems to be a strategy that's working and causing established pros to adjust their game to compete. Just my observation. What do you guys think? | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop vs. Post Flop Play, 4 POKER, 21. Jun 2003 15:53 | ||
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| Wow......that's an observation that I'm not sure has enough merit to it. Simply because a professional poker player will not only make sure that his pre-flop play is strong but his play throughout the entire hand is also strong and it has always been that way. That is the difference between an average player and a pro player.....the pro focuses all the time, every betting round, but his pre-flop play skills are much stronger than the average player which will enable him to get "the best of it" more often than not. And it will be his strong reading abilities and his ability to make more accurate decisions post-flop, that will allow him to dominate or outplay the player who may have entered the pot with inferior holdings or is still not experienced enough or skilled enough to get the proper read over the pro. So even though you may be witnessing what seems to be.....in reality, your preflop play is still the most crucial play of all; and how you handle it from that play on (post-flop) is what truly separates the good from the not so good. IMO, the focus starts before the flop, as you must play solid cards if you tend to show any kind of profit at all. Now mixing it up once in awhile (adjusting to the other players and such), has ALWAYS been a factor of the pro player. Maybe what you are observing is the play seen in tournaments which often varies from the play that you may find in a ring game. I'm not sure, maybe you are noticing the players getting trickier or fancier on the flop, but maybe this is just another form of the game that you weren't aware of until watching the WPT. Could that be it? Anyway, if you're learning more about the game and are tuning in to the strategies that these players are using on post-flop play, than that is just another element that you have picked up on...good! Just don't confuse the importance of pre-flop play with the importance and strategic play of your post-flop play. The two go hand in hand......always have, always will.....regardless of the new and "up and coming" player. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop vs. Post Flop Play, Guru, 21. Jun 2003 16:25 | ||
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| Well, you're probably right. You are certainly on of the more respected and skilled players here. The reason, I think I'm seeing this is that watching WPT, I'm amazed at some of the junk these guys start playing in the final table of the tourney. Could you believe last week the one guy went in hard with 2-7o? That's the guy that came in third (or was it fourth?) in the tourney. That, of course, was a freak incident, but I still see these guys coming in with hands that are clearly outside of the top fifteen or twenty hands a lot. Not just the amateurs, either. 1) One thing I see is that this is happening on the final table with six or fewer players, so that somewhat explains it. They have to lower requirements short handed. 2) That said, I see these guys coming in with Q-6o or J-7 much more than it seems they should, but they seem to be doing well by releasing if the flop misses or taking advantage of the stealth of their hand when the flop comes in for them. To me it's like they're stealing an extra pot or two per hour this way. All that said, I don't think, by any means, that good players are abandoning solid pre-flop play and proper starting requirements. I just felt like there was a small shift in the other direction. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop vs. Post Flop Play, 4 POKER, 21. Jun 2003 16:37 | ||
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| Wow, 7-2? Ahhh, the play of a tournament player! Yeah, tournament play is quite different from ring game play and even though some goofball wins a tournament, whether it was from playing really good poker or from just trying to bluff someone out or maybe the deck just hit him over the head......those results are strictly short term and that just proves even more that anyone can win a tournament(or in this case...3rd)! I'd love to have some of those types in one of my ring games for a week or two just to see how far they would get with idiodic play.....I really would. Take care. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop vs. Post Flop Play, Guru, 21. Jun 2003 16:49 | ||
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| Oh man, I'm sorry you missed it! It was an entertaining tourney to watch. Right now, I can't remember the names, but the short stack guy was barely surviving the whole time. Whenever he hand a hand (supposedly), he would go all-in. Every time he went all-in, everyone folded, giving him blinds and antes only. The guy did this for hours without ever getting called. He actually got to the very end of the night without ever showing one hand, ever! So I think when the guy I was talking about earlier got short stacked, he was going to try the same thing. It was funny. He got nailed trying to pull the move 2-7o. It was the Reno one, if you see on TV this week. Anyway, I certainly have alot more to learn and study. I'm just trying to get better. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop vs. Post Flop Play, 4 POKER, 21. Jun 2003 17:33 | ||
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| Funny story Guru. ......and yes, it's always important to keep learning and sometimes when we see something, it teaches us what not to do, too! So good for you and keep asking questions too...you'll learn alot; I know I have....... 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop vs. Post Flop Play, Big_Slick, 21. Jun 2003 17:30 | ||
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| Hey Guru, At that level of play, bluffing and mind games encompass a major part in a lot of players games. The player you were referring to was simply trying to bluff the pot and got caught with his pants down. It happens. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop vs. Post Flop Play, 4 POKER, 21. Jun 2003 17:35 | ||
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| on 21. Jun 2003 17:30 Big_Slick wrote: > Hey Guru, > > At that level of play, bluffing and mind games encompass a major part in a lot of players > games. The player you were referring to was simply trying to bluff the pot and got caught with > his pants down. It happens. Very true, indeed. 4P- | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop vs. Post Flop Play, sburne, 25. Jun 2003 06:16 | ||
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| That play of Paul Magril was special. I've heard that 72o is his "special hand" that he bets hard. If he wins, he shows it to put the other players to put them in tilt. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop vs. Post Flop Play, shorn, 23. Jun 2003 05:40 | ||
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| Guru- Another thing to consider when watching the WPT is how the players got to the final table. I can guarantee that the first three days of the tournament, they were not risking chips on J7o and other crap. The key in the tournament is to survive to the final table and then you can (or may be forced to) make some unorthodox plays to again survive to heads up. The final table is where knowing your opponents and reading thwm becomes more critical than the cards you are playing. Up until that point though, the pro's are for the most part playing tight/aggressive. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop vs. Post Flop Play, Swagman, 21. Jun 2003 18:12 | ||
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| A newer breed is growing in number that are more aggressive and being less selective on their opening hands. In my opinion must bantar about what hands you should start with preflop is geared towards NL holdem and NL holdem tournament play anyways. Unless you playing NL I think your play after flop constitutes the majority of your money making and desicion skills. I would disagree with 4 poker's opinion that your pre-flop play is the most important decision you will be making if your playing this kind of poker. If your playing premium hands your at an advantage when entering the pot, however your in less pots, therefore your pre-flop considerations are by far the most important dicisions you'll be making. However, if your choosing to see more cards then obviously your post-flop play becomes your primary consideration. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop vs. Post Flop Play, Mark, 21. Jun 2003 20:05 | ||
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| As someone else noted, at that level mind games and bluffing can play a big part. You have to play your opponents and your position. If you only play great cards two things will happen 1. no one will play agaisnt you, so you won't win any chips and 2. the only way you can win is if the deck hits you over the head. Doyle Brunson noted that "you can't just sit and wait for a hand, the blinds and antes will eat you alive". His notorious hand is the 10-2, yes 10-2, he won 2 WSOP championships with it 20 years ago. Mark | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop vs. Post Flop Play, 4 POKER, 22. Jun 2003 01:32 | ||
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| I agree with what you're saying; but, am still pointing out the fact that a pro player will have better reading abilities and is more skilled at handling the entire hand, post-flop AND pre-flop. I'm not saying that a pro won't necessarily only enter pots with just strong hands, but he will be more aware as to when he should be making obscure raises with inferior starting hands like 7-2o for example, and he will make better and more accurate decisions from that point on as well. When I speak of focusing on playing more solid hands pre-flop, I am referring more to limit hold-em more so than N/L, and that's because the psychological aspect of poker (strong reading abilities) is a little more prevelant pre-flop in N/L than it is in limit. But...I will still say that if you're strictly talking about playing in limit ring games, then a player who has the ability to play a solid game of poker pre-flop and doesn't get into bad habits pre-flop, will definitely have more positive results long term and that is what I was trying to advocate here. Of course the pro has the ability to mix things up,(I have stated that already), but I do think that his timing for making those plays will be at the best opportune moment given all things considered. Now if you were to take a professional tournament player and put him up against just your average player, the pro will still have the bigger edge, even though any one tournament is based on a short term result....the pro will still be the favorite. Even comparing phil Helmuth with Robert Varkoni; Phil was still the favorite to beat Robert even though he may have failed to do so. Robert made some plays where he was truly the underdog and was not reading Phil (or his other opponents correctly) and still wound up smelling like a rose. But that was based on a very short term result. Take those two players and put them in a N/L tournament again and if neither one of them was to improve from where they stood as of now....Phil or any other extremely skilled tournament player would come out on top waaaay more times than your average, inexperienced player would. I know that tournament play is much different than ring game play, but like I said; the person who can make the best decisions throught the entire hand pre-flop and post-flop, will have a much greater advantage because the two go hand in hand. And for the simple reason that a pro has a better feel for the whole element of the game in which he's playing in, will be more the reason why his strategic plays (even the ones used preflop), will be more advantagous than the ones trying to be made by the novice. The pro is skilled in every area and uses his abilities to get the best of it on EVERY round of betting. Now if you were just to talk of playing in ring games and you were playing limit hold-em, I don't care what crazy moves a player may make at any one given time pre-flop... if you were to be able to play solid poker for the majority of your starting hands and had the strong ability to know where you stood in each hand and had tremendous reading abilities and were able to maximize your hands (and to minimize losses), IS what separates the pro from the average player. That is what I was trying to get across; not that the pro ONLY plays nut hands; but that it's his stronger abilities that will allow him to have the advantage at all times. And if this is strictly about N/L play.....than why is it that the same names keep popping up year after year? It's because these guys are professional N/L tournament players, that's why. Now if you were to put some of them in a ring game against a more experienced (pro) ring game player, than their overall results may not be as high. Your win percentages for any one given type of game is based on your abilties of a player in that game at hand and it is your skillfulness in that one game that will allow you to show a bigger profit than someone who is not as skilled in that area. And as far as Doyle Brunsons' quote goes......well that was a quote that happened to be made by a professional tournament player.....himself!! He was not your average or inexperienced type N/L guy.....he knew exactly how to play the game and he knew WHY he was making certain calls and raises....it was his strong reading ability as a pro that enabled him to play his own certain style of poker. | ||
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| Re: Pre-Flop vs. Post Flop Play, Mark, 22. Jun 2003 08:06 | ||
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| well said | ||
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