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Server Time: 2/12/2012 10:03:20 AM PACIFIC |
 pocket pairs, jj, 21. Jun 2003 09:10 | ||
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| I was wondering what some of the more adv. players thought about low to middle pp. I usually see the flop, which I guess, is a no brainier. What I was wondering if it is worth paying the money to see the turn and river just for a chance at a set? Thanks JJ | ||
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| Re: pocket pairs, Piers Majestyk, 21. Jun 2003 09:18 | ||
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| Well seeing the flop is not exactly a no brainer. In early to mid position with no one entering you should probably muck hands 22-77 because you will very likely not get enough action behind you to justify trying to hit your set. What you're looking for with small to medium pairs is a multiway pot. I am looking for at least two players to enter before I will call with these types of hands. If you don't hit your set on the flop you are about 22.5:1 to hit it on the turn and most pots just won't be offering you these types of odds, so faced with action on the flop you should probably muck your pocket pair unless there are some serious extinuating circumstances. Good luck. | ||
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| Re: pocket pairs, Big_Slick, 21. Jun 2003 09:40 | ||
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| Most players categorize their pocket pairs by small, middle and large. Small is usually 2-6 Medium is usually 7-10 Large is usually J-A A big leak in a lot of players games is playing small pocket pairs in early position. This costs a lot of players money over the long run. This is because whenever you enter any hand in early position, you are vulnerable to raises and re-raises. Your 3-3 UNG is now going to cost you 2 bets to see a flop if someone after you raises. If the hand gets re-raised twice, a smart play would be to fold. Now you spent a bet for nothing. Now, as far as sticking around to see the turn or the river... this all depends on a lot of factors. - How many players are in the hand? - What is your position? - How high is your pocket pair? - How does the board look? - Is your pair higher than any card on the flop? If you hold 9-9 with 3 other people seeing the flop and the flop comes 2-4-8 rainbow, I might be inclined to stick around for another bet if I held late position. If I held A-A with 3 other people seeing the flop and the flop came 7-8-9 with a 2-suit on board and one person bet and another raised, I'd be very worried and probably fold my rockets. Again, it depends a lot on the situation. A lot of inexperienced players play their high pocket pairs with blinders on. If they have A-A or K-K, they are apt to put their head down and fire in the bets no matter how the board reads. This is stupid and costly. Personally, If I hold a low or medium pocket pair and I see a flop and miss, I end up folding probably 80-90% of the time. I know this may seem like a lot to you but when you hold 6-6, there are only 2 more sixes in the deck that will complete your set. Granted, it might only cost you a half bet to see the turn, but these half bets really add up. I was playing in a sit and go just last night. There was a raise UNG. A middle player called and the SB raised to make it 3 to go. Everyone called. The flop came 2-6-J. The first player bet, the second player raised and the SB called along with the first player. Everyone stayed until the bitter end. The SB won with 2 pair... Aces and Sixes. The other two players both had pocket 8's. They were both drawing totally dead and were clueless. Anyways, I hope this helps a little. A good experiment for you would be to keep track of all your pocket pairs. When you get dealt a pair, note your position as well as the rank of the pair. Write down whether you bet the hand or not and how many bets it cost you to see the flop (in case you got raised). If you stick around for the turn or the river, note is as so. Keep track of how many times you hit the set or tank out. Even the hands you end up folding after the flop, keep track of how many times you would have hit your set or missed it. At the end of the week, add up how much money you saved by folding or how much you lost by calling. I think you'll find that folding after the flop is a smart move with small or medium pairs and will save you a lot of money over your poker career. | ||
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| Re: pocket pairs, BigDMcGee, 21. Jun 2003 10:08 | ||
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| It also depends on the game you're playing in.. if you're playing in a game where 5,6,7 people are seeing very flop, and there isn't alot of preflop raising( which is common in low limit hold 'em) then pocket pairs become very playable from an early position. But, in a tight, aggressive game that has two or three players wh o see the flop, and there's alot of pre flop raising, you can pitch most of your pocket pairs from an early position. Staying in with your pockets trying to hit your set is one of the worst plays that I see, and i see it commonly in low limit hold'em. THey are such low percentage, sucker plays. There are times to be agressive and raise on the flop if you have a pocket pair, and you think the better is on a flush or straight draw, but these situations are not very common.. Mostly, in the games where you want to play pockets, loose, passive games, this is a bad play, 'cause players will be in till the end anyway. Most of the time, it's hit your set with small pockets, or dump them.. | ||
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| Re: pocket pairs, SendMoney, 21. Jun 2003 10:22 | ||
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| First of all I'd like to say that I think ANY player, especially an inexperienced one could cut 22 thru 44 or even 22 thru 66 out of their arsenal completely regardless of position and # of players and not suffer too greatly for folding these small pairs. The reasons for this are (a) you won't hit your set on the flop 89% of the time (b) your pair has no real betting power without a set (c) the threat of set over set to a larger pocket pair (d) the possibility you flop a set and lose to a better hand by the river, straight, flush, larger full house. For example let's say you're on the button with 55, get two limpers before you the SB folds and the BB raises - everyone calls, 4 players. The flop comes AK5 rainbow, the BB bets, the other players fold, and you raise, but the BB re-raises...if he has AA or KK then you have 1 out to beat him with the case 5, if he has AK then you're leading but he'll have 4 outs to beat you with a bigger boat. If you're not clairvoyant then you might be his customer, flopped set and all. If you want a good strategy for small pairs you should look at it as buying cards to make a set. Say if you're playing a $3/$6 Hold Em you should try to pay the minimum for cards to make a set. If you call for $3 then you're paying $1 per card for the flop, but if you call a raise cold with say 66, then you're paying $2 per card, which is too much for the limit you're playing. Now if $2 is too much before the flop then calling or making a $3 flop bet to see the turn is paying $3 for 1 card with 1/22.5 odds which is a terrible bet, which would make $6 with 1/22 odds for the river card about as negative an expectation play as you can get - oh and by the way that guy making what seems to be making a position bet might have flopped a set of 7s ;) | ||
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| Re: pocket pairs, jdsalinger, 21. Jun 2003 14:04 | ||
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| that's pretty damn good advice Send you can't go wrong with that info | ||
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| Re: pocket pairs, LJH, 21. Jun 2003 12:24 | ||
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| DEAR JJ, NO! LJH | ||
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| Re: pocket pairs, 4 POKER, 21. Jun 2003 16:24 | ||
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| JJ, You asked if it's sometimes correct to see the turn and river with a small pair that has not flopped a set...correct? That will all depend on how many opponents are in the hand with you and if you have taken control pre-flop and you feel that you might be able to take control on the flop and make a play to get your opponent/s to fold. But we all know how hard it is to accomplish that alot of the times, (especially in LL hold-em), so to waste bets by trying to push someone off the hand may not be worth it to you at all. In fact, you're probably going to lose a lot of money if you practiced this play too often. And if you are simply just "calling" all the way to the river to see if you can "hit" your two-outer set, than that play as well be quite costly. So either way you look at it....whether you're aggressive with your pair or are just being a calling station, both plays in the long run, will be incorrect. So the key to playing the smaller pairs is to NOT play them every single time you get them. It is not a no-brainer that one should always see the flop with a small pair; in fact, they should really be released preflop more often than not. They are not your true money-making type holdings and IMO, if you never played 22-66, you wouldn't be losing that much at all. But, if you still chose to play them, make sure you are at least in LP and can limp in for a cheap price and are getting enough callers in with you as well, because the small pairs really do want volume and if you don't flop a set, you should fold and not invest any more of your good money by trying to get lucky. And who's to say that even if you do hit your set on the turn or river that it might be good anyway? You could have been drawing pretty much dead after the flop to an even higher set already. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: pocket pairs, jjsteele, 22. Jun 2003 09:53 | ||
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| Thank y'all very much. I think y'all just saved me a pile aof money. JJ | ||
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| Re: pocket pairs, stdioh, 23. Jun 2003 10:45 | ||
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| Fold your small pairs in early position unless you are at a very loose and passive table. On the flop, no set = no bet. The exception to that rule might be if the flop is 457 and you are holding 66, since you are up/down and it's likely that if you make the straight you'll win. But in general, get the hell out with your small pockets or they will bleed you to death. | ||
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| Re: pocket pairs, MozMan, 23. Jun 2003 13:14 | ||
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| You aint just whistling Dixie. I did some more analysis on my hand play last night, and small pocket pairs are STILL my biggest leak. I just keep talking myself into playing them... and waht's worse, I keep talking myself into one more call to see if I catch the set on the turn. The rare times I do catch the set (flop or turn) in EP on the low ones isn't even coming close to paying for all the bets I'm wasting on those hands. I've come to the decision that I have to do something active to prevent myself from playing them. For now, at least for my online play, I have put a sticky note on my screen that says, '22, 33, 44, 55, 66... where's the button??" Hopefully, that will get me into the habit of double checking my position before I get excited about seeing a pair in my hand. -Moz "Truly, you have a dizzying intellect." | ||
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| Re: pocket pairs, stdioh, 24. Jun 2003 10:25 | ||
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| Indeed - in NL play you can get away with 22 in early position because of the implied odds you get when you hit your set, but in a limit game, they are junky. Also, it is not uncommon for 2 players to hit sets at the same time and one to be really crippled. Which would you rather be? | ||
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