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Server Time: 2/13/2012 6:11:05 AM PACIFIC |
 suited connectors value in LL, Bond18, 20. Jun 2003 22:40 | ||
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| A lot of the talk about low limit holdem on here has been the value of making the nut hand. I'd be interested then in all of your opinions on trying to get in on a lot of pots with suited connectors in loose games because of their potential to become nut hands. | ||
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| Re: suited connectors value in LL, 4 POKER, 21. Jun 2003 03:45 | ||
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| The Play of (smaller) suited connectors...... That all depends on your position and if the game is aggressive as well as loose. If the game had both elements, loose/aggressive (L/A), then you need to dump more of these holdings pre-flop because they'll wind up costing too much. Entering the pot with a suited connector (say 10-9 or 8-7 suited) tend to become more playable when the game is loose yet passive at the same time. I still wouldn't advocate playing these hands in early position though. If there are several (5 or more) limpers in already, and you are in late or last position, then you can limp in and see the flop. But you shouldn't go overboard with these hands either. Now if the suited connectors had higher value to them, like J-10, or Q-10 suited, you can make the call more liberally in a passive and loose game. The smaller the connectors are, the more apt you should be playing them in very late position. They do have value to them but must not be overplayed preflop or after the flop either. It's kinda like A-K only reversed. Though the hand has strong potential preflop, it tends to be one of the most overplayed hand after the flop when nothing even remotely helps this hand and a player goes crazy with 3 betting it and such.(just an exaggerated example). You must know when to fold and to not get carried away. The same applies with the small suited connectors. Their playable, but their strength preflop is marginal at best. Pick your spots carefully. I don't care how loose/passive the game is....I am not limping in with a hand like 6-5 UTG whether it's suited or not. Position, position, position! The closer you are to the blinds, EP and UTG, the more you'll need to have really strong holdings. The closer you are to the button....The more you'll be able to enter the pot with holdings that are not as strong and in this spot is where the smaller suited connectors, the smaller pairs will play best. You'll already have an idea as to how many players will be seeing the flop.(pot odds) and you'll have enough information on how much these types of holdings will cost you. Because they are the type of hands that really do want volume, when you chose to play them in late position is when they will be the most profitable, and you'll have better control on saving those extra bets when the hand doesn't warrant you to play it. That is why late position is best- limp in at a cheap price when the pot is laying you better/good odds. . 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: suited connectors value in LL, Andrew Wells, 22. Jun 2003 02:38 | ||
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| Suited connectors have the potential to make hands that are much better than the average hand that should win a pot at low limit. They have a very limited potential to make the nuts. That can only happen with some of the possible straights. Let's look at a hand like 8s7s. I'm going to assume you already know what you need in terms of table conditions and your starting position to get involved. You need to know what you will need to continue after the flop. Does a flop like Th 9d 4d give you enough to continue? Well you might say that you are about 2:1 to complete the straight by the river, and with $30 already in the pot in a 3-6 game you would have odds to get there. But look again, how many cards will give you the nuts here? There's only three that will do this, and you also have to avoid someone else catching something better on the river. So my point is that playing suited connectors is going to often put you in a position where you can end up playing a strong hand, but still beatable. This means you still have to be able to play well after the flop so you can get away from the hand or at least pay the minimum when you are beaten. It may take several bets or raises to determine that your made straight or flush (that is not the nuts) is not the best, and still usually end up calling to a showdown since these are relatively strong hands that don't occur often. This is why you need more players in the hand from the very beginning, not because of the odds of flopping something playable, but because you need to get paid off big when you hit. If you're not getting paid when you have a made hand, then those times you do get beat or flop nothing are going to cost more than you would make when you do win. Suited connectors are not easy hands to play well. This especially true from early position, even if the game is loose and passive enough that you are getting enough (6 or more opponents) players to see the flop. However if you have late position (preferably acting last after the flop), you may be able to play in such a way that you get checked to on the turn. This by itself is enough to make these types of hands slightly profitable. When you enter a pot from late position, it has now become much less likely that someone will raise behind you. If you already have four or more callers, you also know you are getting the right price to flop something playable. All this information is not certain from early position, and without it that 8s7s becomes a money loser. | ||
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| Re: suited connectors value in LL, 4 POKER, 22. Jun 2003 03:13 | ||
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| on 22. Jun 2003 02:38 Andrew Wells wrote: > Suited connectors have the potential to make hands that are much better than the > average hand that should win a pot at low limit. They have a very limited potential > to make the nuts. That can only happen with some of the possible straights. Let's > look at a hand like 8s7s. I'm going to assume you already know what you need in terms > of table conditions and your starting position to get involved. You need to know what > you will need to continue after the flop. Does a flop like Th 9d 4d give you enough > to continue? Well you might say that you are about 2:1 to complete the straight by > the river, and with $30 already in the pot in a 3-6 game you would have odds to get > there. But look again, how many cards will give you the nuts here? There's only three > that will do this, and you also have to avoid someone else catching something better > on the river. So my point is that playing suited connectors is going to often put you > in a position where you can end up playing a strong hand, but still beatable. This > means you still have to be able to play well after the flop so you can get away from > the hand or at least pay the minimum when you are beaten. It may take several bets or > raises to determine that your made straight or flush (that is not the nuts) is not > the best, and still usually end up calling to a showdown since these are relatively > strong hands that don't occur often. This is why you need more players in the hand > from the very beginning, not because of the odds of flopping something playable, but > because you need to get paid off big when you hit. If you're not getting paid when > you have a made hand, then those times you do get beat or flop nothing are going to > cost more than you would make when you do win. Suited connectors are not easy hands > to play well. This especially true from early position, even if the game is loose and > passive enough that you are getting enough (6 or more opponents) players to see the > flop. However if you have late position (preferably acting last after the flop), you > may be able to play in such a way that you get checked to on the turn. This by itself > is enough to make these types of hands slightly profitable. When you enter a pot from > late position, it has now become much less likely that someone will raise behind you. > If you already have four or more callers, you also know you are getting the right > price to flop something playable. All this information is not certain from early > position, and without it that 8s7s becomes a money loser. You added a very important factor to those hands as well. No matter how playable they may sometimes be pre-flop, you still have to know when to get away from after the flop. That is another reason why these hands (even ones like J-!0) can become danger hands when you don't flop strong enough or even the nuts. These hands tend to need more of the nuts as opposed to just top pair or something like that because you're also faced with kicker problems, too; even the J-10. I agree totally in what you're saying, indeed. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: suited connectors value in LL, shorn, 23. Jun 2003 05:24 | ||
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| I agree with Andrew and 4POKER here. These hands have great value in a loose passive game, but only from late middle to late position where you already know that there are 4+ callers in the hand. One other thing to keep in mind (online especially) is that the "suited" nature of the hand means less than you think because there are many players who will play any two suited cards in LL (K3, Q6 and the like), so even if you make a flush, there is not guarantee it will be the best and you will have to play it very carefully, thereby not allowing you to extract the maximum from your opponents. I am not saying that the hand being suited is worthless...just that you can't overvalue it because of this and use that as a reason to limp in the first 4 spots. I only play these hands in the last three spots and in the blinds online. Examining my play, I have lost too much money with hands up tot T9s from the first 5 positions at the table. Good luck, Steve | ||
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| Re: suited connectors value in LL, stdioh, 23. Jun 2003 10:53 | ||
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| Yes, if I'm playing a very loose very passive table, I'll come in with 45 suited in early position...I would fold 89 suited in middle position if I were playing with a bunch of rocks. | ||
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