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Server Time: 12/3/2008 6:35:32 PM PACIFIC |
 Limit Holdem Tourny Question, David R, 20. Jun 2003 11:21 | ||
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| I was playing in a large limit holdem tournament when the following scenario came up. Did I play correctly? The tournament is down to 14 players (2 tables seven players) 1500/3000 blinds play 3000/6000. Places 10-18 pay $8800. I am one of the smaller stacks with 12000 chips. UTG I am dealt 8h 8c. I raise to 6000 everyone up to the big blind folds. BB raises to 9000, I call. Flop is Ad Qs 4h. Big blind bets 3000. Do I call here because I only have 3000 chips left and next hand will be my big blind? Or, do I fold and play one more hand? I called and the BB had AK and I fail to improve and go out 14th. Was the call bad with 22000 in the pot or should I have folded after the re-raise while I still had 6000? DRich | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, MozMan, 20. Jun 2003 11:59 | ||
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| Please keep in mind reading this that I am no tourney expert: To be honest, with T12000, I wouldn't have even raised UTG with 88. I might have called, hoping to see the flop for one bet, then follow the no-set-no-bet rule. I might even have called one raise. In any case, by the time he has you down to just T3000... you might as well fold to overcards, and hope you catch something good all-in on your BB, because you are basically hopeless to the overcards on the flop. -Moz "Apples, fool! Because vests have no sleeves!" | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, mroban, 20. Jun 2003 12:14 | ||
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| Like MozMan, I am no expert myself, but I have had some pretty good success in online Limit Tourneys (a bunch of top 10s in some big multitables). I have no problem with the raise with the pocket 8. You had to make a stand there. Getting busted with Big Slick from the BB is no dishonor. But, you were beat on the flop and the only hand you could have beaten is a bluff raise from the BB (if you figured he was just trying to knock you out). Still, odds are he had an Ace something to make that play (i forget if you mentioned how big his stack was at the time). Basically, I think I would have thrown away my hand and gone all in on the BB hoping for a miracle. But once committed, I am not sure you weren't better off hoping to make your set on the turn or river and living with the result. Your odds going all in on the BB weren't necessarily any better. Don't lose any sleep over it. You finished in the money and had a short stack. You were a huge underdog at that point anyway. Like my high school basketball coach used to tell us when we lost a game by 1 point on a bad call by the referree: we lost the game not because of that call, but because we put ourselves in that position to begin with. Same thing here. Don't belabor the decision. You went out there because you had a short stack at that point in the tournament. The decision was basically a coin flip. Whether or not you should have waited for the BB with T3000 is almost irrelevant (IMHO). | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, Paul Stine, 20. Jun 2003 12:31 | ||
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| on 20. Jun 2003 12:14 mroban wrote: > Like MozMan, I am no expert myself, but I have had some pretty good success in online > Limit Tourneys (a bunch of top 10s in some big multitables). > > I have no problem with the raise with the pocket 8. You had to make a stand there. > Getting busted with Big Slick from the BB is no dishonor. But, you were beat on the flop > and the only hand you could have beaten is a bluff raise from the BB (if you figured he > was just trying to knock you out). Still, odds are he had an Ace something to make that > play (i forget if you mentioned how big his stack was at the time). > > Basically, I think I would have thrown away my hand and gone all in on the BB hoping for > a miracle. But once committed, I am not sure you weren't better off hoping to make your > set on the turn or river and living with the result. Your odds going all in on the BB > weren't necessarily any better. > > Don't lose any sleep over it. You finished in the money and had a short stack. You were > a huge underdog at that point anyway. Like my high school basketball coach used to tell > us when we lost a game by 1 point on a bad call by the referree: we lost the game not > because of that call, but because we put ourselves in that position to begin with. > > Same thing here. Don't belabor the decision. You went out there because you had a short > stack at that point in the tournament. The decision was basically a coin flip. > > Whether or not you should have waited for the BB with T3000 is almost irrelevant > (IMHO). > > The problem with folding on the flop in this case is that you actually *have* a hand and it can improve if you are behind (and I don't think that is a certainty at this point.) If you fold you are *hoping* (wishing? praying?) that you can win with the random hand you will be dealt in the blinds. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, Kid, 20. Jun 2003 12:19 | ||
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| I like the UTG raise. You are a short stack and can't wait all day for a hand. When you get reraised from the big blind, you can probably put him on a small set of hands (big pocket pair or A big kicker). So if the flop contains an A, it's hard to think of a hand were you don't have 2 outs. I would have said a few curse words, then thrown the 88 away. If the flop didn't contain an A, then I'm not folding because he could have easily missed and you are in the lead. Either way getting reraised with a decent, but not great hand is a tough spot. KID | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, Tim C, 20. Jun 2003 12:24 | ||
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| Dave I would have limped in hoping for a cheap flop, once you were reraised you had to decide to fold or go all in. After that flop a fold is the best choice ,88 utg is a real trouble hand. With your chip position I may have laid it down preflop. Small pairs have exit signs all over them, hope this helps | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, Paul Stine, 20. Jun 2003 12:27 | ||
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| on 20. Jun 2003 11:21 David R wrote: > I was playing in a large limit holdem tournament when the following scenario > came up. Did I play correctly? > > The tournament is down to 14 players (2 tables seven players) 1500/3000 blinds > play 3000/6000. Places 10-18 pay $8800. I am one of the smaller stacks with > 12000 chips. UTG I am dealt 8h 8c. I raise to 6000 everyone up to the big > blind folds. BB raises to 9000, I call. Flop is Ad Qs 4h. Big blind bets 3000. > Do I call here because I only have 3000 chips left and next hand will be my big > blind? Or, do I fold and play one more hand? I called and the BB had AK and I > fail to improve and go out 14th. Was the call bad with 22000 in the pot or > should I have folded after the re-raise while I still had 6000? > > DRich Given that you are probably going to see the hand through to the end, based on the pot and your stack, I think four betting before the flop is probably in order. There are very few hands that are outright favorites to your hand preflop and you maintain the aggressive position with the re-raise. you only have one small bet left in your stack after doing this, but you may get your opponent to incorrectly fold on the flop. (Obviously not if he flops top pair, top kicker, but in general.) In short, if you are going to put it all in, *bet* it all in, don't *call* it all in. You can't do any worse than busting out and you just might pick up some chips and momentum necessary to carry you on to victory. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, Kid, 20. Jun 2003 12:39 | ||
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| Getting it all in pre-flop is an option, but why do it just yet. In my earlier post I said you can put most players on a set of hands when they reraise in that spot (big pocket pair or A big kicker). You aren't a big favorite over any of those and you're a big dog to the big pairs. If he's the type of player to reraise small baby pairs, then it's a different situation, but I don't think most players will do that. So why push in pre-flop if A. you're going to get called B. you're pretty sure you're even money at best I say take a flop and put your chips in if the A doesn't hit. This is based on your pre-flop read. Still, I'm no expert either, but I think you can use your chips better if you can get away from the A high flop. KID | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, Paul Stine, 20. Jun 2003 12:52 | ||
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| on 20. Jun 2003 12:39 Kid wrote: > Getting it all in pre-flop is an option, but why do it just yet. In my earlier post I > said you can put most players on a set of hands when they reraise in that spot (big pocket > pair or A big kicker). You aren't a big favorite over any of those and you're a big dog > to the big pairs. If he's the type of player to reraise small baby pairs, then it's a > different situation, but I don't think most players will do that. > > So why push in pre-flop if > A. you're going to get called > B. you're pretty sure you're even money at best > > I say take a flop and put your chips in if the A doesn't hit. This is based on your > pre-flop read. Still, I'm no expert either, but I think you can use your chips better if > you can get away from the A high flop. > > KID The problem is that with such a large percentage of your chips already in the pot you have no place to get away to. I don't think this is the place to roll over and play passively. It would be like the Texans opeing the gates of the Alamo and letting Santa Ana ride right in. When you raised and were re-raised you have three courses of action: fold, call or re-raise. In two of those cases you are committed. If you are going to be committed why not fire, if only for effect. I have seen way, way too many players in the BB's position make huge mistakes by folding here to a fourth bet (and/or a subsequent bet on the flop). You can't be 100% certain that you will be called when you make this play. It doesn't matter what your cards are at this point, it only matters that you win the pot. Take that % uncertainty and add it to your real odds of winning the hand and you are now more than a slight favorite. You have to give your opponent an opportunity to make the wrong decison and you will never, ever do that by calling. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, TKarrde, 20. Jun 2003 12:32 | ||
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| You're about to be blinded out. Odds aren't good that you will get anything better than 88 anytime soon. I like the play and would do it everytime. When you wrote $8800... did you forget a decimal??? ;) TKarrde "You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian (Mozman) when death is on the line!" | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, David R, 20. Jun 2003 13:05 | ||
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| on 20. Jun 2003 12:32 TKarrde wrote: > You're about to be blinded out. Odds aren't good that you will get anything better > than 88 anytime soon. I like the play and would do it everytime. > > When you wrote $8800... did you forget a decimal??? ;) > > TKarrde No, I didn't forget the decimal. It was a big tournament and it paid $8,800.00 for 10th thru 18th. | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, Big_Slick, 20. Jun 2003 12:42 | ||
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| The views expressed here do not reflect the views of UPF or it's management. The views are that of Big_Slick who, with a lucky river card, once won a 6 person sit-n-go for $1.50. I realize that you were running out of chips, but you probably should have folded your hand. Since you are UTG, you are waaaaaay out of position here. With 12,000 in chips left, 1500/3000 in blinds, you could have lasted 3 more times around the table. That's 30 more hands. I would have waited for a better hand and a better opportunity. Also, while waiting for a better opportunity , you are also hoping that 4 more players bite the big one and you place 9th or better. This would mean a bigger pay day for you. | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, Wren, 20. Jun 2003 13:06 | ||
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| > I realize that you were running out of chips, but you probably should have folded > your hand. Since you are UTG, you are waaaaaay out of position here. With 12,000 in > chips left, 1500/3000 in blinds, you could have lasted 3 more times around the table. > That's 30 more hands. I would have waited for a better hand and a better > opportunity. I don't think position matters so much when you're as shortstacked as he was. Besides, in the situation described, the table is shorthanded, which means that hands like 88 and AT go up in value. Furthermore, if he'd opt to muck here, he has less hands to pick from before the blinds are back around to him. And he actually only has 2 more times around the table before he's blinded out. > Also, while waiting for a better opportunity , you are also hoping that 4 more > players bite the big one and you place 9th or better. This would mean a bigger pay > day for you. 4 more players are not going to bust out before he does, unless he takes a risk with his small stack. It's unlikely that he's going to get a better shot than this. | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, Big_Slick, 20. Jun 2003 13:47 | ||
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| Oops, only 14 people left. My mistake. OK, so there are 7 people per table. I still stand by my reasoning. Yes, hands like 8-8 go up in value in short-handed games but there are still 6 other people at the table... not 3 or 4. Moreover, I'd take A-10 in a heartbeat over 8-8 in this situation. I don't think position matters so much when you're as shortstacked as he was. I disagree. If you are going to disregard position, then you are not playing poker. In tournaments with solid players, everyone is watching everyone else's stacks. When a player is close to going broke, better players with larger stacks are going to take shots at eliminating you when they have decent hands. I'm talking about hands like K-10, J-Q, A-9. Hands they might not neccessarily play against 2 callers, but are willing to see a flop with you here in this situation. The bottom line is this: With 8-8, half the deck is an overcard. I know he's running out of chips and I know he's getting desperate. So does everyone at the table as well. By betting UNG here, he is letting 6 people take shots at him. He did happen to run into some one with a premium hand. But that's not the issue. Also, with the betting at $3000/$6000 it is very possible that 4 people could crap out before he does. Just my opinions. This is what makes poker so great... ask 10 people how to play a hand and you're bound to get 10 different answers. Who knows.. if the 8 flops, he looks like a genius. If he folds and the next hand he gets dealt is K-K or A-A, he's thanking himself for being patient. | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, Wren, 20. Jun 2003 14:08 | ||
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| Comments embedded. on 20. Jun 2003 13:47 Big_Slick wrote: > Oops, only 14 people left. My mistake. > > OK, so there are 7 people per table. I still stand by my reasoning. Yes, hands like 8-8 go up > in value in short-handed games but there are still 6 other people at the table... not 3 or 4. > Moreover, I'd take A-10 in a heartbeat over 8-8 in this situation. I think the two hands have approximately equal value in this type of situation. > I don't think position matters so much when you're as shortstacked as he was. > I disagree. If you are going to disregard position, then you are not playing poker. In > tournaments with solid players, everyone is watching everyone else's stacks. When a player is > close to going broke, better players with larger stacks are going to take shots at eliminating > you when they have decent hands. I'm talking about hands like K-10, J-Q, A-9. Hands they might > not neccessarily play against 2 callers, but are willing to see a flop with you here in this > situation. The bottom line is this: With 8-8, half the deck is an overcard. Other players will take shots, but more often when they are the first to make the move. A very solid player will not likely 3-bet or cold-call an UTG raise with a hand like KT or QJ, when UTG still has chips left. His stack is still big enough to make a serious dent in a more decent-sized stack. > I know he's running out of chips and I know he's getting desperate. So does everyone at the > table as well. But the other players also don't want to double him up. > By betting UNG here, he is letting 6 people take shots at him. He did happen to run into some > one with a premium hand. But that's not the issue. > > Also, with the betting at $3000/$6000 it is very possible that 4 people could crap out before > he does. It's possible, but so is sticking around for the runner-runner and getting there. > Just my opinions. This is what makes poker so great... ask 10 people how to play a hand and > you're bound to get 10 different answers. Definitely :O) > Who knows.. if the 8 flops, he looks like a genius. If he folds and the next hand he gets > dealt is K-K or A-A, he's thanking himself for being patient. That's true too. Especially with online play. Since we have no "tells" to work with, sometimes we have to simply look at the pot odds and make an educated guess. If we're holding JJ, raise, some other guy comes over the top all-in and we call, we look great if he's holding AT but pretty fishy if he's holding AA :O) And yeah, working a small stack in the late stages of a tournament's definitely not cut & dry. It's often a close decision between making a move now, and waiting it out a bit. The hand being discussed here is definitely a good example of one of those not entirely clear-cut situations. | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, TKarrde, 20. Jun 2003 14:18 | ||
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| 1. 88 is better than AK is this situation. What is he going to wait for QQ? 2. Everyone is going to gun for him. The lower his stack the quicker they will be to do so. This guy had to drop some coin to take his shot. 3. There is a good chance to steal or double up. 4. Doubling up with 12k is gonna be much better than doing so with 6k or 3k. Have a great weekend everyone!! TK | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, TKarrde, 20. Jun 2003 14:21 | ||
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| Eeekk! I was reading his post as the blinds were 3k/6k. Ooops. But I'd have still done the same thing. TKarrde "You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian (Mozman) when death is on the line!" | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, David R, 20. Jun 2003 13:08 | ||
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| You may be right that I should have folded, but I only had 15 hands left if I didn't play (7 players and I was the next BB). Thanks DRich | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, MozMan, 20. Jun 2003 14:07 | ||
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| Yeah, that was kinda my point. Everyone keeps mentioning that you were short stakced, and you were, but with T12000, and bllinds at T3000/T4000 you could conceivably have gone 3 more orbits before being blinded out. With 7 players at the table, that's 21 more hands to get something more solid than a medium pair in EP. On the other hand, there IS a very valuable addage about getting your chips in when you have the strength (as opposed to after). Perhaps 4-betting preflop (when you were on top) may have had a different effect on your opponent's play. -Moz "Apples, fool! Because vests have no sleeves!" | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, chasepoker, 20. Jun 2003 16:01 | ||
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| Hate to bring up the words but " It depends " Are other people going to bust out and push you up the money ? what was the payout structure ( is it worth hanging around for ninth ? ) How many hands had you been playing prior to this, is your UTG raise going to win the blinds ? Do you want it to win the blinds or is this the hand are you looking for to take a 50-50 and double up on ? Saying all of that if you are looking at being knocked out without moving up the payout unless you make a move i would have probably raised pre flop and then reraised all in when the other guy made it 3 bets pre-flop. I cant see how you can fold when he bets on the flop unless by saving you last T3000 you can move up the payout ( but if this was the case then you would not have moved with it preflop ) But what do i know i went out after about 45 mins in the UPF comp ! Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, LJH, 20. Jun 2003 18:34 | ||
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| you must fold, and wait for thebb.ljh | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, Andrew Wells, 22. Jun 2003 03:46 | ||
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| If the next two players on my left were also short stacks then I might wait and try to steal it back. The problem is that you may get someone else in the pot when you have the button or cutoff, but it could be worth it. If these players on my left would not be risking more than half their stacks to cover such a potential steal, then I would prefer to play that 88 UTG and take my chances that way. | ||
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| Re: Limit Holdem Tourny Question, shorn, 23. Jun 2003 05:04 | ||
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| Personally I would fold simply because you were UTG. Yes, with only 7 players at the table it is equivalent of you being in 4th position and the first three have folded, but I don't want to get pot committed on a middle pair when i could survive a few more laps and potentially see a better hand. I don't think you were quite at desperate time and if there was any chance that there were smaller stacks that would (1) either bust out before you moving you up in the $$ or (2) were small enough to call your move with overcards, I would have waited. | ||
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