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Server Time: 12/3/2008 12:15:21 PM PACIFIC |
 Grabby hands..., Wren, 20. Jun 2003 07:48 | ||
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| Here's a scenario: You've been showing strength, perhaps you have a set and delay-raised a bettor on the turn. Or, you picked up a nice draw (up & down + flush draw, say). Now the river comes, the the original better grabs his chips and looks at your expectantly. What does this mean, and what do you do? Caro talks about this one in his Book of Tells, and his analysis tends to be spot-on, at least in my game. If your opponent is a generally straightforward, no-nonsense, ABC-player, there is no question what he holds: a decent, but not great hand. Perhaps top pair, good kicker. He will pay off a bet, but is hoping for a free showdown because he suspects that it's more likely that you're good. The implications of this are that you can make a pretty straightforward decision on the river, regardless of position. If you can beat his hand (which you'll have a good idea of because of this concept alone, and also going by other factors such as how loose/passive he is, any other tells you've picked up, etc.), you bet. If not, you check. So in the former case, betting your set or top two-pair is a no-brainer. In the latter case - you've raised or checkraised the turn on a semi-bluff, but then miss the river - you really have to check. This is one area of my game that's improved over the last couple months or so. I've blown away a good number of bets in the past by continuing to bluff the river after bluffing/semibluffing the turn against a player who I've sensed weakness from. But then I'll notice them grabbing chips on the river and I'll think, correctly "They're weak and trying to prevent my bet", but then follow this through with an incorrect thought of "I can blow them off this one. The pot's big enough that it warrants a shot." But then they virtually NEVER fail to put in that river bet. They show me their top pair, or perhaps even their second pair, overcard kicker, and then I chastize myself for, yet again, trying to bluff out a lie detector. I'm not sure whether these certain types of opponents are simply unaware that they're grabbing their chips early, or they are aware and they just don't care about these so-called "tell" things. Regardless, they will lose a significant amount of money to astute players by doing this. Demographically, I find that a lot of seniors do this, and women, more so than men. One 5-10 regular at our casino, a woman in (most likely) her mid 60s, exhibits this tell quite reliably. She's actually a solid player when it comes to starting hand selection, betting good, but vulnerable, hands hard, and some basic, trickier moves (raising a flush draw on the flop in late position, checkraising very aggressive players, etc.) However, she just CAN'T let go of hands like top pair, top kicker, even when it's quite obvious that she is beaten. She'll set her jaw firmly, grab two chips and throw 'em in there, usually in the direction of the bettor who she essentially KNOWS is going to take down the pot. Younger people don't do this nearly as much, but inexperienced younger people do, and so do some "dedicated newbie" types, who are starting to nail down the Lee Jones starting hand requirements, but haven't yet moved on to Sklansky's and Caro's material. Their minds are so occupied with trying to figure out odds, and whether the other guy might REALLY have that straight that he's representing, that they pay no attention to any physical indicators they might be giving off. On a related note, watch for trickier players exhibiting the grab-chip tell. These players might do a grab-chip-fold, or a grab-chip-raise, so you can't rely on the aforementioned formula for dealing with them. I find a lot of young, solid players do this. They're usually male, often Asian, and tend to do a lot of skilled chip shuffling. I find that the grab-chip-raise can be an effective reverse tell against a fairly solid, but intermediate player, if you can pull it off. For example, say you're in a hand with a flush draw, but river an unlikely straight instead. You suspect your opponent's on something like two pair. If you bet right into him, he'll probably be perplexed and just call. If you check and grab your chips, there is an excellent chance that he'll bet and then you can checkraise. Just some food for thought. There's been so much not-quite-poker talk lately with the UPF tournament & all (including MUCH NQP-banter from yours truly), that I thought I'd make my contribution to getting things back on track. IMO, it would be interesting to discuss various tells in detail - demographic trends people have found, perhaps reverse-tells that other players have used effectively, deviations from Caro's Book of Tells, etc. etc. I know that stdio, for one, would be up for this :O) | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., shorn, 20. Jun 2003 08:27 | ||
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| I use this reverse tell a lot in my game or against a weak player that I want a free showdown with. It is definitely something to watch and another reason why (unless you are trying to induce something) you should always wait until the action is to you before you move to your stack. BTW Wren, based on your last post to me, I thought the "Grabby Hands" title meant something else entirely.. :) | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., TKarrde, 20. Jun 2003 08:44 | ||
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| > BTW Wren, based on your last post to me, I thought the "Grabby Hands" title meant > something else entirely.. :) Here here!!! My blood starting running a bit faster. Talk about disappointment. TKarrde "You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian (Mozman) when death is on the line!" | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., Wren, 20. Jun 2003 09:00 | ||
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| LOL....silly men. Always thinking with the wrong head. :O) | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., MozMan, 20. Jun 2003 09:02 | ||
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| "A man has a brain and a penis, but only enough blood to use one at a time." -Robin Williams. -Moz "Apples, fool! Because vests have no sleeves!" | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., stdioh, 20. Jun 2003 08:28 | ||
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| In my experience, a large number of grabbers believe that by grabbing their chips they are showing a willingness to put in money (and maybe raise) and they are trying to prevent you from betting. Somebody who has given up on a hand entirely won't bother with this and somebody who is really strong will usually be not moving and staring at a spot on the wall or at the TV. The guy who is grabbing for chips is almost certainly on 1 pair, so you can feel free to river bet him with a crappy 2 pair and happilly not bluff at him unless you have a really good reason to. | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., MozMan, 20. Jun 2003 08:36 | ||
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| Very true... I find that when I try grabbing chips, or something like that, I almost never move someone off of betting. I can usually just get their attention and make them notice me when I want them to. I think most players view me as a fairly solid player, and pretty predictable, so I like to do this kind of thing when I want to break that aura of predictability somewhat. -Moz "Apples, fool! Because vests have no sleeves!" | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., shorn, 20. Jun 2003 08:41 | ||
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| Players must be weaker in CT, because I find that I can get a free showdown more than 50% of the timewith the "grab and hover". However, you can't do it until AFTER you have shown down a bunch of really good hands and people always are worried that you have a big hand. | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., MozMan, 20. Jun 2003 08:32 | ||
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| Hey Wren- It's funny you should select this particular tell as a topic. It's one of my favs... because I use it backwards just as frequently. In other words, I notice what people are doing with their chips (an after an hour or so, I can usually determine if it is purposeful, or an honest tell). but I alos actually like to use my chips to get someone's attention at the the table, and find it is usually pretty effective, especially at LL games. It is a very obvoius tell, and even unsophisticated players will pick up on it subconsciously if you give them an opportunity. So I find that doing things like stacking my chips in several even bets accross my cards can be very effective if I want to scare people off. It alos works well if I have a solid player at the table, and I want him to think I'm bluffing. Somtimes, simply holding separating a stack of 20 chips and holding them down, as if afraid they will float away, and leaning forward in anticipation achieves the desired result as well. Sometimes I like to have a little fun, (especially early in the session when I'm still trying to get a read on the table), I will do somthing like this to get the message accross that I will raise preflop. If I'm in late position, I can see progrssively as the action moves around the table, people becoming more hesitant... then when it get to me, I'll simply fold the cheese I have. Then, I can watch the subtle reactions of the table, and see how quickly they regain composure on the flop. It's a lot of fun, really. -Moz "Apples, fool! Because vests have no sleeves!" | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., TKarrde, 20. Jun 2003 08:50 | ||
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| > -Moz > > "Apples, fool! Because vests have no sleeves!" Ok, that just sounds cool. But I'm dumbfounded as to the source. TKarrde "You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian (Mozman) when death is on the line!" | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., MozMan, 20. Jun 2003 08:56 | ||
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| To be perfectly honest, I have been using that one so many years that I can't remember where it came from. Probably a Monty Python gag somwheres... I remember the whole this went something like this (it might be a little off): person 1: "If a chicken and a half laid an egg and a half in a day and a half, how many pancakes would it take to cover the side of a doghouse?" person 2: "I don't know..." person 1: "Apples, fool! Because vests have no sleeves!" And I chuckle uncontrollabley(sp?) every time I think of it... :-) -Moz "Apples, fool! Because vests have no sleeves!" | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., TKarrde, 20. Jun 2003 08:59 | ||
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| That is great!! Because I remember something just like that. Almost exact. Except the punch line wasn't "apples" It was ?????, because ice cream doesn't have bones. Your's is much funnier. TKarrde "You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian (Mozman) when death is on the line!" | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., A-Train, 20. Jun 2003 09:00 | ||
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| TKarrde, You from IN? If so, where? 4P thought you may know of some B&M sites in the area (if there are any). Thanks | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., TKarrde, 20. Jun 2003 09:21 | ||
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| Yep. Southern Indiana. I live about an hour from Evansville, IN where they have a small boat. Nothing great but it has poker tables. Only about 8, and the lowest HE game is 5-10. They have 3-6 on the list but it is never going. Also live about 90 minutes from Caesar's boat by Louisville. They have a much nicer poker room. Twelve tables. They have 2-4, 5-10, 10-20, 15-30, and 20-40 Hold Em. And a ton of Stud. That boat is much nicer but the poker room doesn't have a bad beat jackpot or free snacks. They will be building a new Casino in Orange County by 2005. Boat of course. Proabably gonna dig a hole in the ground, fill it with water, and put a boat in the puddle. Stupid stupid laws. But that one will only be about 20 minutes away! SWEEET!! Can I get a retainer on a divorce lawyer now. :) j/k Everything else is pretty much up by Chicago. TKarrde "You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian (Mozman) when death is on the line!" | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., Wren, 20. Jun 2003 09:05 | ||
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| Yeah, I almost always hold two chips in my hand preflop. I trained myself to do that so that there's a smaller chance I'll give away something about my preflop hand. It's pretty much automatic to me now. People often turn to me after I muck and say "I would have played but I saw those two chips and thought you were gonna raise!!!" Hehehe. Funny though - one particularly astute player said he knew I was going to raise preflop anyway. He said I angled my chips one way when I was going to fold, and a different way when I was stronger and was going to play (with either a raise or a call). URRHHH! Ah well - he was of the vast minority in my game, so I wasn't overly concerned, but I did think about it somewhat. | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., shorn, 20. Jun 2003 09:58 | ||
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| Don't know why he would tell u that... | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., Wren, 20. Jun 2003 10:15 | ||
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| I dunno....'cause he thought I was cute? :O) | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., shorn, 20. Jun 2003 10:42 | ||
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| You mean LOVELY... | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., Andrew Wells, 22. Jun 2003 04:17 | ||
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| He's just playing mind games to try and get you to stop doing it. | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., 4 POKER, 21. Jun 2003 05:06 | ||
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| What I have done quite often is this.... If I'm in a hand (heads up) with someone and on the last betting round I decide that I want to bet and see that my oponent is reaching or even touching his chips, if he notices that I am watching his motions BEFORE I take any action, I will bet many times whether I have the nuts or it's just a stone cold bluff. The reason for this (and this works against sneaky players), he WANTS the free card. His hand is not good yes he's trying to to tell you that "if you bet I'm callin' so don't even try to bluff. That is when I WILL bet, because I know that he noticed me watching him "grab" and if I'm still willing to follow through it will be a much harder call for him to make now. But this works against the sneaky/tricky player more than it will work on just say an average type player. The average/newbie/unaware player will more times than not make the call when they are reaching for their chips, but the experienced or just plain tricky types will not. They are simply just trying to confuse you here and if you follow through with a bet, they will fold. But they must not be aware that you are aware of them and their capabiliies either. It's kinda like I know that you know that I know etc. etc. .These are more of the reverse tells that are commonly used by astute players. Now, another tell, though this one is pretty straightfoward is one that is commonly made by the average type player. If a player sits up straight after slumping down in his chair for 2 hours he is holding a very big hand (probably KK or AA). When you notice a quick posture change from a player is a sure sign that he's holding the goods. Another one that I have noticed comes from playing with a particular man on a regular basis at my stud 8 or better game. If he is dealt a really good hand or completes his hand by fifth street (say a wheel or something close in strength to that), when it's his turn to bet or raise, he will totally look away from the pot. In fact his head is completely turned to one side as to say, "I have nothing, I have no interest in this pot whatsoever and SOMEBODY pleeeease call me"! It cracks me up because he has been playing poker for years and is not aware of the fact that he does this every single time. It's really quite comical when I think about it. One of my biggest problems (that was costing me money) used to be, reaching for my chips on the last betting round when a person was trying to see my actual strength and than they would decide to just check because they KNEW I was going to make the call. They would reach for their chips and at the very same time, they would look in my direction for any kind of "tell", like me reaching for my chips! That's a HUGE TELL if you're just the average type player and believe it or not, there are still pros out there that make the mistake of reaching for their chips too prematurely. I had cost myself alot of money by acting too quickly and now I wait until my opponent is COMPLETELY done with his betting before I even think to pick up my chips. And because there's no set rules in some places as to crossing over the line with chips, is more the reason now why I won't even flinch if I think my opponent is trying to bluff me out of the pot. I will just sit there like a dead duck, wait for him to bet, and then I'll call. This way I pick up one extra bet that I wouldn't have gotten if I happened to act too prematurely. I used to take mental notes of these types of players that would constantly make the play of grabbing chips and then pulling back with them as soon as they saw you reach for yours. In fact, they were soooo good with this move (angle), that half the time my bet would already be in the pot and then they would say,"oh, no no no, I check, too." Well if you're acting first and you check, and then he reaches for his chips and but doesn't follow all the way through with his bet... then if you toss chips in the pot because you THOUGHT he was actually going to make a bet, then your bet in the pot wouldn't count either...you had already checked, see?!! These sneaky types of players are not even real good players the majority of the time and I would often say to myself hmmm, that guy did it to me again, DAMN! He's not even a good player, he's just sneaky. And that is where I try to never underestimate what my opponents may be capable of. They may not be pro players and they may not even play a solid game of poker; but the one thing they MAY have, is the abilty to expolit the tells of another player and they use them every single time and of course....to their advantage! So don't confuse a bet by someone will always mean that he has a hand. Many, many times a person will bet on the last round because they missed completely. So ALLOW your opponent to make the bet, and then you can call. Because all those times that you react too quickly will stop your opponent from betting meaning, he will yield one saved bet but you will lose one big bet. They all add up, trust me. There's more.....but these are just a few for now. Good topic to discuss, IMO! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., Schuster, 21. Jun 2003 21:44 | ||
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| > If your opponent is a generally straightforward, > no-nonsense, ABC-player, there is no question what he holds: a decent, but not > great hand. Perhaps top pair, good kicker. He will pay off a bet, but is hoping > for a free showdown because he suspects that it's more likely that you're good. > The implications of this are that you can make a pretty straightforward decision > on the river, regardless of position. The others have covered the tell aspect in a lot of depth. The thing I had to add is why check-raise as a semibluff when your opponent will always call with top pair top kicker? It seems to lose something if the opponent is nearly always going to call you. The concern might be that if you only check raise good made hands, then he will begin to fold. The solution to that problem seems a lot easier. Either you can begin to semibluff again, or hope that the player takes note when you do it to others. I play at lower limits than you, so perhaps I'm way off, but maybe it's not your river play that needs adjustment, but your turn play. Lee | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., Andrew Wells, 22. Jun 2003 04:11 | ||
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| One that I sometimes use which is similar to the grab, is to simply move enough chips off of one of my main stacks and set them aside after betting the turn. It's sort of a stop the raise type of ploy rather than getting ready to call a bet on the river. The message it seems to send is that I'm going to play this hand out. I often get the folds I'm looking for on the turn when I do this. | ||
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| Re: Grabby hands..., Snorbolus, 22. Jun 2003 07:39 | ||
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| Some of you have been posting about using reverse tells, so I thought that I would add my 2 cents. At the moment (and I admit that I am still very much a beginner), I try to avoid giving any tells, reverse or otherwise. This is because the players who I find give me the hardest decisions are those who give the fewest tells. I was playing against a gentleman last night who had no tells at all that I could spot. He just sat there impassively. After each card he would watch the other players, then look at the board, then look slightly away from the action. Always the same, no matter whether he was going to play or fold. It was very disconcerting as it gave me nothing to go on. To make matters worse he was a very good player. Obviously I tried to stay out of his way as much as possible (at least I had position on him). I think that most players (even aware ones), who behave differently with different sorts of hand, have some sort of pattern that they must constantly work to avoid slipping into. I prefer to go up against this sort of opponent because at least I have a chance of spotting something useful. I generally feel more confident about my decisions against these players. Finally, the two tells that I personally find to be most consistently, most useful are, easily, the direction of a players gaze. Players who continue to stair at the flop usually do not like what they see. Players looking away from the action usually have a hand. Straight from Caro. Very easy to spot, very often reliable. Snorbolus | ||
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