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Server Time: 8/30/2008 9:28:50 AM PACIFIC |
 Partners???, meowmix1, 19. Jun 2003 13:06 | ||
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| Hi, I am very new to poker. And new to this board. I have read a book or two, and played Texas Hold'em mostly online. Recently I was involved in a live game at an aquaintances house. There was a married couple, along with 5-6 individuals playing. The biggest winner of the night happened to be the husband in the couple. It might have been my imagination, but I think the couple was signaling each other during specific hands. And I'm pretty sure they weren't catching the hole cards of the other players. My question is: (if they were communicating and playing together) would this give them an unfair advantage?? Is it blatantly against the rules? or just a breech of etiquette. Are there specific signs i should look out for? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Meow | ||
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| Re: Partners???, 4 POKER, 19. Jun 2003 13:21 | ||
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| Hey meowmix, (that's a unique name, but anyway)... There's nothing wrong with a married couple, (or even two friends for that matter) playing in the same game as long as nobody is giving any signals to each other. BUT.......If there's ANY form of signaling whatsoever.....then, yes, that would be cheating. It's not a matter of ethics; it's a matter of having an advantage that isn't based on skill at all, it would be one that was purely based on "Unfairness", and that's not right. If you really do think that this couple was giving any kind of signals AT ALL, you should either confront them or just take the easy way out and quit playing in that game. Maybe you can try to observe them a little bit closer the next time and see if you still have those suspicions; but try not to cloud your judgement when coming to that conclusion. It may just appear that this is what's going on, when in reality it just might be nothing much at all. When two people, (whether it be husband/wife or friend/friend....IMHO, if they are playing their hands honestly and by that I also mean betting each other heads up and not softplaying one another; then it should be okay for the rest involved. But if these two are not betting their hands against one another, than that IMO is bad for the game. it will cause making the others to feel suspect. But you be the judge....only you can get the correct vibes about this couple. I can only give you a suggestion. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Partners???, Mike Caro, 19. Jun 2003 13:41 | ||
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| on 19. Jun 2003 13:21 4 POKER wrote: > Hey meowmix, (that's a unique name, but anyway)... > > There's nothing wrong with a married couple, (or even two friends for that matter) > playing in the same game as long as nobody is giving any signals to each other. > > BUT.......If there's ANY form of signaling whatsoever.....then, yes, that would be > cheating. It's not a matter of ethics; it's a matter of having an advantage that > isn't based on skill at all, it would be one that was purely based on "Unfairness", > and that's not right. > > If you really do think that this couple was giving any kind of signals AT ALL, you > should either confront them or just take the easy way out and quit playing in that > game. > > Maybe you can try to observe them a little bit closer the next time and see if you > still have those suspicions; but try not to cloud your judgement when coming to that > conclusion. It may just appear that this is what's going on, when in reality it just > might be nothing much at all. > > When two people, (whether it be husband/wife or friend/friend....IMHO, if they are > playing their hands honestly and by that I also mean betting each other heads up and > not softplaying one another; then it should be okay for the rest involved. But if > these two are not betting their hands against one another, than that IMO is bad for > the game. it will cause making the others to feel suspect. > > But you be the judge....only you can get the correct vibes about this couple. I can > only give you a suggestion. > > > 4 POKER What "4 Poker" is saying is absolutely correct, meowmix1. Additionally, you should remember that you must ALWAYS play poker only in your selfish best interest at the table. Any action you take that isn't strictly in your own selfish interest ("selfish" being used in a positive way here) and that is different from the way you would play against an enemy or takes into consideration the wishes of an opponent is cheating. Period. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Partners???, flintsword, 19. Jun 2003 14:01 | ||
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| 4 POKER makes an important point that you really have to observe closely AND objectively. Signaling is just cheating, period. It is tough enough with some couples who are almost telepathic with their partners ... lol ... (thinking of Wren & company here, but I know that heads up poker, it would be a fight to the death). This is the advantage of a B&M casino, where the staff has the experience and watch for it. Good luck in your poker results and try out the free WPO Warm Up freeroll if you are interested (and up to the challenge ... lol): www.bugsysclub.com/club/poker/wpo-2003.htm Just in case you haven't read "Fortune's Smile", ... Here is that link: www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m1111/1807_301/68018764/p1/article.jhtml flintsword | ||
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| Re: Partners???, stdioh, 19. Jun 2003 14:12 | ||
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| Indeed. Wren and I never play at the same table when we can avoid it. The reasons are the following: 1) Even though we wouldn't collude there is the appearance of dishonesty - somebody could accuse us and what could we say in our defence? 2) We know eachother very well. Wren has an uncanny ability to know when I'm on a set (and it vexes me to no end) and I have a fairly good read on her when it comes to putting her on a big ace or a big pair on a preflop raise. No, we're not signalling eachother, but we know eachother well enough for it to be a little unfair. 3) It is difficult to act against your partner the way you would against a stranger because you are worried about what people will think. What if I have 2 pair, but worry that she's on a monster and slowplaying, so I check it on the turn. Now on the river I think I can checkraise when I fill up, but that fails. Everybody sees me check it down with her and thinks I'm softplaying her. The fear of that might prompt me to bet when I would otherwise check. Likewise, what if we're three handed and I put her on a bluff and decide to rebluff to knock out the hand that has me beat (say I have middle pair). Now it comes to a showdown, she's got nothing and I've got next to nothing. The guy I knock out is going to moan that we were raising eachother unethically with garbage to get him out. So I'd probably just fold here instead and then I'm losing my edge again. The long and short of it is that it is impossible to play in such a condition without ocasionally either colluding or looking like you're colluding and it is just something to avoid whenever possible, plain and simple. Luckilly I spend most of my time battling the 10-20 whilst Wren owns the 5-10 so overlaps are few and far between. | ||
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| Re: Partners???, stdioh, 19. Jun 2003 14:05 | ||
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| The easiest way for them to cheat is to signal to eachother what hands they are holding and then fold to eachother when beat. This would mean that any time husband has 2 pair and wife has a set and third player has a straight, third player wins less money from the couple collectively. This is very much cheating. Long story short, if you are suspicious, don't play there anymore. Probably it is innocent. I'll give you the example of Sean and Chris, a couple who play at Brantford. They are always sitting at a table together, whispering to eachother and looking extremely cheatful. People complain, they get sent to different table, Sean argues with a floorman for half an hour, repeat ad eminem. Do I think that they are cheating? Nope. First of all they aren't good enough players to really profit from cheating in the first place, but aside from that, they make no effort whatsoever to conceal that they are married and are there together. They sit beside eachother and talk quietly to one another - cheaters would probably sit apart and not communicate much except for signaling. And the fact that they moan about being seperated lends them credibility too. That said, it is absolutely essential that the house seperates them and the reason is the appearance of equity. It is not enough that the house runs a fair game - the house must run a game that appears to be fair. Thus the players should have any seed of doubt or cause for suspicion and should be comfortable betting their money. In the case of your home game, there is no reason for the game to need to appear fair and thus the married couple plays in the game out of the same bankroll without a problem. Are they actively cheating? Probably not. Do they know eachother well enough to communicate information without "really meaning to"? Probably. Should you play with them? Probably not. I'd sit in a game like that if it was just so fishy and juicy that there was a lot of money to be made and even then I'd be cautious. If they bet and raised eachother some hand and I won it at showdown, I'd be looking at their cards and if I found them both holding trash, then you better believe I'd be out of there. Consider it another (important) variable in your table selection / game selection. But I wouldn't confront them about it. First of all, if they are cheating you have nothing to gain by telling them that they are busted. If they aren't cheating you are going to really offend then and make a new pair of enemies. I'd say, don't rock the boat on this one. Nobody is forcing you into the game. Play it at your own risk. | ||
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| Re: Partners???, 4 POKER, 19. Jun 2003 16:01 | ||
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| Stdioh, I read your post and it makes good sense except for one part that I don't understand. You stated that you would gain nothing by confronting them if they were cheating because now they would know that they were busted. Well, if they very well were cheating, and you had strong proof of it, then it would be your obligation to confront them about it. You see, if you're not comfortable with confrontations than there would be an easy way out for you here, and that would be to just quit the game and not say a word. BUT, if they indeedly were cheating, than (IMO) you should confront them immediately. Now I am not referring to "you think"....I'm talking about knowing for certain. If a couple is cheating you have a lot to gain by busting them. First, you're allowing yourself to not be cheated by anyone. Second, you save the intregity of the entire game and everyone will benefit from your ability to speak up, thus for...NO body gets hurt. Third, it will allow you to keep playing in the game that you were enjoying being at in the first place, while the cheaters can go elsewhere. Trust me, if I saw anyone cheating in a live game at the casino, I would confront that person/s immediately and than I would contact the floor. The same should apply in any game, whether it's a house game or not. If they are without a question cheating, then they weren't there to have fun in the first place. So if you were to be positive about such a thing, you couldn't just walk away, say nothing, and just quit all together....you'd have to tell the whole bunch....that would be the only right thing to do. I wouldn't want anybody to be sitting in a game with a cheater, (not my own worst enemy). It's wrong and it must be exploited as such. Like I said, I'm talking about being positive about it, not "well, I think they might be cheating or something". I'm talking 100% positive. Just one more thing and then I'm done..... whether a player/s is a good player or not.....never underestimate their ability and what they might be capable of...... 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Partners???, stdioh, 20. Jun 2003 09:03 | ||
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| If you could prove it, then yes you should confront them. My point is that if they are cheating and you can't prove it then confronting them isn't going to do any good and will likely just make you look bad. It'll also help them get better at cheating so that it is harder to notice in the future. | ||
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| Re: Partners???, noiseboy, 19. Jun 2003 14:20 | ||
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| I play in a home game with a married couple from time to time. They know each other so well that they kinda get into each other's heads and know what each other will do in a given situation. What appears to be collusion can also just be that they really know each other well. | ||
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