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Server Time: 11/21/2008 11:41:38 AM PACIFIC |
 Smash Bang Wallop grrrrrrrr., Cpt Kernow, 17. Jun 2003 08:32 | ||
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| Arghhhhhhh. I dont know what has happened at Party Poker, some promo's in USA I gather, but the place has gone totaly wild. This wildness is Killing me. The problem is that to coincide with this wildness I am having my first encounter with an extended period of cold cold cold cards. Having to sit at a table whilst my stack is slowly whitled down by not hitting a thing whilst having to watch others pull in huge pots with cards I would never dream of starting with eventualy puts me on a huge tilt as my pateince is nuked outright by my first playable hand in ages being outdrawn by some 1000 to 1 shot.. Check this out. This hand cost me a fortune as it put me on my most massive tilt ever, it came just at the critical moment were my nerves and patience were frayed raw by hours and hours of sitting waiting to pounce on all these glorious river chasing fish, but never getting any bait. 1/2 game. I have AKos on the button. UG+3 bets several limpers I raise. UG+3 calls limpers all call. Flop = AcKdJh UG+3 bets, limpers either bet or fold I raise UG+3 calls remaining players call. Turn = 5h. UG+3 bets remaining players call I raise UG+3 reraises every one drops I reraise UG3 caps. By this point I realise that this UG3 is raising his own flush draw. So he is betting on the river being a H. River = 3h. He bets I call he turns over 79h for the flush. This tilted me because not only was I at least the 3 in 4 winner for the river card but I hadnt hit a flush draw for hours, and by flush draw I mean 4 flush, Id been sucked into makeing bets by pot odds but of course nothing had hit. It was the contrast. To me it seems realy dumb to raise your own flush draw like that, and of course I should love the fact that he does so even if it does hit. But this was like the breeze block that broke the camels back. My newly forged discipline shattes like glass and for next few hours I played like a zombie. I am still literaly afraid to fire up the poker client software as my nerves have recently been hit so hard. Its just the contrast I cant take, I cant hit squat with anything, I mean decent starting cards played in position and all these clueless fish pulling in huge pots with pure filth. Again i say ARGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. Also I say Thanks for putting up with my rant. Im sure youve all been here before. For me this is a new one. | ||
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| Re: Smash Bang Wallop grrrrrrrr., chasepoker, 17. Jun 2003 08:48 | ||
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| Stick with it mate i was down about 50 BB in about 5 hours at the weekend only to spend the rest of the week raking it all back, if people are going to go for those runner runner outs then they will hit some of them it all the other times they. PS i just had my QQ cracked by the early caller who had J5o and i love the guy for doing it !!! small, medium or large ? Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: Smash Bang Wallop grrrrrrrr., Easy E, 17. Jun 2003 09:07 | ||
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| here's a hint- stop overvaluing AKoff in loose games | ||
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| Re: Smash Bang Wallop grrrrrrrr., Nathaniel Brous, 17. Jun 2003 10:02 | ||
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| on 17. Jun 2003 08:32 Cpt Kernow wrote: > Arghhhhhhh. <snip> > By this point I realise that this UG3 is raising his own flush draw. So he is betting on the river being a H. Why in the world would you think that? At this point I would be much more afraid that my opponent had flopped the nut straight or turned trip 5's, along with a lesser fear of flopped trips. You would much rather flop an uncoordinated board with an Ace or King than what you did flop. AK is a good hand for sure, but not every flop will give you that "happy go lucky feeling." It appears that you were ratcheting up your emotions previous to this hand and consequently took this hand personally. The game of poker (played properly) has little room for emotion. Never ever forget that it is a seven card game, because your opponents won't. I am not belittling your play, just your reaction to the said events. If this is the worst beat you ever take you can consider yourself the luckiest player on earth. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Smash Bang Wallop grrrrrrrr., stdioh, 17. Jun 2003 10:32 | ||
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| Plan on winning with 2 pair or better. When you hit top pair top kicker, you are still probably not going to win so be really rockish and tight and weak. When you hit a good 2 pair it'll beat the garbage 2 pair that your opponent rivers and you'll be paid off well. | ||
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| Re: Smash Bang Wallop grrrrrrrr., Nathaniel Brous, 17. Jun 2003 11:14 | ||
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| Hey stdioh. Huh? lol What thread were you replying to below? - Nathaniel Brous on 17. Jun 2003 10:32 stdioh wrote: > Plan on winning with 2 pair or better. When you hit top pair top kicker, you are > still probably not going to win so be really rockish and tight and weak. When you hit > a good 2 pair it'll beat the garbage 2 pair that your opponent rivers and you'll be > paid off well. | ||
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| Re: Smash Bang Wallop grrrrrrrr., stdioh, 17. Jun 2003 13:02 | ||
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| This one. I find that in the very fishy games, too many people come along the whole way with little or nothing. Thus the average winning hand is better and instead of 50% of hands being won with 1 pair or not getting to a showdown now all hands get to a showdown and 75% are won by 2 pair or better. That means that you can't sit on your ace when you're playing AK and expect to win or blow anybody else off of their drawing garbage. It means that you need to look for really very solid flops and then get paid off when you have it. | ||
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| Re: Smash Bang Wallop grrrrrrrr., Guru, 17. Jun 2003 15:00 | ||
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| I really think that Nathanial has a point. The problem wasn't his play as much as it was yours. It's easy to start underestimating people you knock as being fish and assuming weaker hands can win. Two pair, even top two pair, isn't a very strong hand and didn't warrant the money you put in the pot. I would probably have put him on the jacks early instead of the flush draw, but, either way, you were running full speed into a higher hand. | ||
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| Re: Smash Bang Wallop grrrrrrrr., Nathaniel Brous, 17. Jun 2003 20:38 | ||
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| Hey Guru. Your post confused me a bit. Comments within. on 17. Jun 2003 15:00 Guru wrote: > I really think that Nathaniel has a point. The problem wasn't his play as much as it was yours. I am not sure I understand where you are going with this. His opponent played the hand poorly and got lucky. I merely made the observation that he flopped a dangerous hand and did not (at least in his post) recognize it. >It's easy to start underestimating people you knock as being fish and > assuming weaker hands can win. A person who consistently plays in the fashion as described can easily be defined as a fish. As 4 POKER pointed out, you want someone to continue playing in such a fashion. >Two pair, even top two pair, isn't a very strong hand and didn't warrant the money you put in the pot. Whoa! Slow down. Two pair is a very strong hand and will win more than it loses. The problem is many people don't recognize when strong hands need to be let go. This certainly was not the case in the hand described. It simply should have been played slightly differently. If you have black aces in late position and the flop comes out all hearts, it should be an easy fold when faced with a bet and a raise before you. Other hands are not so obvious, but just as important. Money saved is money earned. As far as not warranting the money put in, you are correct. Cpt. should have gone into call mode when facing the raise on the turn. This would have saved him 1 big bet, two if he could put UTG+3 on Q10 and called out. That was my ONLY problem with his BETTING in this hand. However, he made a much larger mistake by tying his emotions to his play. >I would probably have put him on the jacks early instead of the flush draw, but, either way, you were running full speed into a higher hand. It's difficult to say. His opponent may have played the hand the exact same way with A5, but that would make him equally as guilty of playing with blinders on. He was running full speed WITH THE BEST OF IT and got unlucky. This happens at least once every second of every day, so it is not all that remarkable. What is remarkable, is that he shared his steaming with the rest of the world and there by may learn something from this. Larry Phillips gives some great advice in Zen and the Art of Poker. Hey Cpt. I highly recommend it for dealing with what you are going through. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: Smash Bang Wallop grrrrrrrr., Guru, 18. Jun 2003 13:10 | ||
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| Nathaniel, I think we agreed more than you thought we did. I may not have been as clear in what I said as I had meant to be. What I meant by "the problem wasn't his play, but yours" was that the other player's style was a given, but Captains reaction to it was the problem on this play. The other guy played poorly, no doubt, but Captains reaction caused him to go down on that particular hand. And I also wasn't trying to insult Captain either, if anyone thought was my goal. I do disagree with you on the strength of two pairs, though. Yes, they will win a great deal, but when someone is coming back at you so hard, you have to wonder what he came up with, especially with three face cards on the flop. The guy could have easily flopped a set or made the straight. If the flop comes 3, 7, 10 rainbow, then I think the two pairs are strong, but that flop was too dangerous to be betting so hard into it. Yes, he defined the guy as a fish and it sounds like he was, but I've seen too many players get burned because they labeled some player as a fish, then ignored every sign that the player had a real hand. It's good to have fish at the table, you want them to play that way, but don't ignore good information that a real hand may be in play. A strong flop along with fierce betting is a sign of a hand. I will allow that Captain made the point that he had played against this guy for two hours and felt he knew the guy well. It's hard to tell from a post how the guy normally played and Captain did have that info over either of us specualting. In the end, given the flop and the circumstances, I thought Captain played the hand over-agressively trying to stick it to the fish. Like I said, I think you and I agree on the hand play more than you thought from my original post. Also, I'm still learning everyday from people here, so I realize I still have stuff to learn, too. Just trying to help. Guru | ||
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| Re: Why I put him on a flush draw., Cpt Kernow, 18. Jun 2003 01:56 | ||
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| I would just like to clarify one thing. I had been sitting at the same table as this player for over two hours. I had observed him reraise into possible big draws on several occasions and chase with nothing. However he exhibited the classic total newby trait of getting over exicited by big hands. If he had a more ordinary holding of 2 pair or a set he wouldnt have been so aggresive with it. Believe me this player was totaly clueless which was another contributing factor to him putting me on tilt. I couldnt take it that he had beaten me in such a way. I put him on a flush draw, and as it turns out I was right. I believe most of the posters who had offered anaylsis about his holdings would have come to the same conclusions had they spent some time with this particular player. Remember that when playing with total and utter newbys more classical analysis of there holdings dont apply as they dont even to begin to think about poker in the way that we do ( or attempt to) As for the emotional aspect.This hand didnt happen in isolation, it happened at exactly the right moment to tilt me. Allready volcanic amounts of tension and frustration were biulding and this hand was literlay the dam burst. What I feel I need to do in the future is recognize that I am at that pre damn burst moment and stand up then and walk away. Not wait for the tilt to happen and then try to reighn it in. Anyway some good advice in reply posts as allways. Cheers Kernow | ||
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| Re: Why I put him on a flush draw., STEPHEN ROWE, 18. Jun 2003 09:21 | ||
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| Try the spell check feature that's available here. | ||
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| Re: Smash Bang Wallop grrrrrrrr., 4 POKER, 17. Jun 2003 15:27 | ||
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| Cpt., When you're holding AK, and the flop comes up A-K-J with only one heart; when there's a player who is willing to call all bets and raises with 7-9 of hearts, you should just simply say to yourself....Thank you for being at my table...Thank you! You can't control what the other players do. If they want to put chips in the pot being a total underdog, then let them. This is how you make money in poker. This was only one hand....look at it from this perspective. if you had to play that hand over with that player who held the 7-9h.....would you? I would. Now you should also keep in mind that even though you did flop strong, the board was totally coordinated and with that many people seeing the flop, you're hand may still need to improve. When you talk about tilting, you are also talking about not being totally aware of what somebody else may be holding, thus leaving you unfocused, and not making an accurate read over your opponents. I'm not gonna wish you luck (because if you play with discipline and not on tilt the luck factor is only short term and there's a big difference between being lucky and being a good player. the good player gets the money), I'm just going to say that I hope you can be completely focused during your next session so you'll be able to see everything from its correct perspective. That will help you to make the most accurate and clear-headed decissions.... the rest will take of itself. hope this helps. 4 POKER | ||
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