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Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, 4 POKER, 16. Jun 2003 21:10
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This situation often appears in a live poker game. It's when you notice the poor behavior of someone in the game who is either berating another player or the dealer.

I'll admit...this post may not be exciting or even interesting to many of you, but it's just something that bugs me about people. Who raised them and how did they get to be so nasty and disrespectful?

I was put in that situation last night in a poker room in the Los Angelas area;: The Commerce Casino to be exact.

I was sitting in a $20-40 stud 8 or better game. The man to my left was the loosest player in the game. He contributed alot of money to the game, but he often got very irate when things didn't go his way. Every time he lost a hand, he would either start cursing or he would say something really nasty to the dealer/s.

Well, there was one instance where I had apparently put the so-called "bad beat" on him (and I admit that I did), however when the hand was over, I had called my hand, "Aces up", (and when he saw me catch the Ace on sixth street that had given me this holding), he was livid. You see, he had two Aces in the pocket and felt that he took a really bad beat, but what he didn't stop to consider was that I was on a low draw and had backed into Aces up. He wasn't able to make a higher Aces up than mine so I wound up scooping the whole pot.
Now...right after he had flashed his pocket AA's to the whole table, he threw them directly into the dealers face. (A woman I may add). I said to him, " what the heck do you think you're doin'?, that wasn't very nice at all."

Here's where the morals and values come into play.

After about a minute or so, the dealer had called for a floorman and when he arrived, he quietly asked this man to step away from the table while he made his decision as to whether he was going to allow this man to continue to play in this cardroom.
I've noticed that the cardrooms in California are pretty lax when it comes to enforcing the rules. The players get away with murder and for the most part, the dealers are taking the short end of the stick. I guess they're used to it by now because they very rarely open their mouth when someone berates them or throws cards at them.

The man was away from the game for a good hour before the floorman came back over to our table and asked me and one other player if this man did indeed throw the cards in her face and did we think that he really hurt her. What would it even matter if it hurt? If someone threw cards in my face, You'd better believe it wouldn't be okay... no way. I chose to quietly tell the floorman the truth and I said that he did indeed throw cards in her face and yes, he did throw them hard as well. I guess because I have a good repore with the floorpeople there, they chose to pick me to give them an honest answer. They know that most players who live there would have said nothing because most of them good give a rats behind as to what happens to anyone. You see, all too often poker players are just out for themselves and if it's good for the game well than that's all that matters. No morals. No values. No nothing. Just money, money, money.

Well coming from a family of having three sisters, I guess I have a great deal of respect for women and felt that it was my morals that caused me to stand up for the dealer instead of trying to keep this fish in the game by saying absolutely nothing.

The man never knew that the floorperson had approached the table; he was in another room, waiting on the decision as to toss his sorry ass out, or to simply allow him to return to the game as if nothing had happened at all.

Well even though he was the fish, I was glad to see him go. What a horrible display of behavior and I couldn't believe that noone had said anything, not one word. They all just sat there as if this was just a common and acceptable thing for a poker game.

Well...noone said a word about it to me and noone seemed to be bothered about him leaving the game but I don't know. I just felt that I had to say something. This poor dealer was almost going to cry and it took her a good minute before she even considered on calling the floor.

(I know this guy that was thrown out for "LIFE" for throwing cards in a dealers face. This took place in A.C. about 5 years ago and he moved out to Vegas and never returned).

What would you guys do? Would you speak up? Or would you try to keep this big fish in the game by not saying anything?
Be honest. I'm just curious. Maybe I should have just let it go and said nothing, but in my heart of hearts, I didn't want my poker to ever interfere with my outside life- and for me, that means to never compromise my values for a game of poker.

Needless to say the game was not as good after he left, but...........oh well.






4 POKER
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, Don Quixote, 16. Jun 2003 21:43
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I commend you, sir, for having the integrity and courage to do what you did.

Don Quixote

on 16. Jun 2003 21:10 4 POKER wrote:
> This situation often appears in a live poker game. It's when you notice the poor
> behavior of someone in the game who is either berating another player or the
> dealer.
>
> I'll admit...this post may not be exciting or even interesting to many of you,
> but it's just something that bugs me about people. Who raised them and how did
> they get to be so nasty and disrespectful?
>
> I was put in that situation last night in a poker room in the Los Angelas
> area;: The Commerce Casino to be exact.
>
> I was sitting in a $20-40 stud 8 or better game. The man to my left was the
> loosest player in the game. He contributed alot of money to the game, but he
> often got very irate when things didn't go his way. Every time he lost a hand,
> he would either start cursing or he would say something really nasty to the
> dealer/s.
>
> Well, there was one instance where I had apparently put the so-called "bad
> beat" on him (and I admit that I did), however when the hand was over, I had
> called my hand, "Aces up", (and when he saw me catch the Ace on sixth street
> that had given me this holding), he was livid. You see, he had two Aces in the
> pocket and felt that he took a really bad beat, but what he didn't stop to
> consider was that I was on a low draw and had backed into Aces up. He wasn't
> able to make a higher Aces up than mine so I wound up scooping the whole pot.
> Now...right after he had flashed his pocket AA's to the whole table, he threw
> them directly into the dealers face. (A woman I may add). I said to him, " what
> the heck do you think you're doin'?, that wasn't very nice at all."
>
> Here's where the morals and values come into play.
>
> After about a minute or so, the dealer had called for a floorman and when he
> arrived, he quietly asked this man to step away from the table while he made his
> decision as to whether he was going to allow this man to continue to play in
> this cardroom.
> I've noticed that the cardrooms in California are pretty lax when it comes to
> enforcing the rules. The players get away with murder and for the most part, the
> dealers are taking the short end of the stick. I guess they're used to it by now
> because they very rarely open their mouth when someone berates them or throws
> cards at them.
>
> The man was away from the game for a good hour before the floorman came back
> over to our table and asked me and one other player if this man did indeed throw
> the cards in her face and did we think that he really hurt her. What would it
> even matter if it hurt? If someone threw cards in my face, You'd better believe
> it wouldn't be okay... no way. I chose to quietly tell the floorman the truth
> and I said that he did indeed throw cards in her face and yes, he did throw them
> hard as well. I guess because I have a good repore with the floorpeople there,
> they chose to pick me to give them an honest answer. They know that most players
> who live there would have said nothing because most of them good give a rats
> behind as to what happens to anyone. You see, all too often poker players are
> just out for themselves and if it's good for the game well than that's all that
> matters. No morals. No values. No nothing. Just money, money, money.
>
> Well coming from a family of having three sisters, I guess I have a great deal
> of respect for women and felt that it was my morals that caused me to stand up
> for the dealer instead of trying to keep this fish in the game by saying
> absolutely nothing.
>
> The man never knew that the floorperson had approached the table; he was in
> another room, waiting on the decision as to toss his sorry ass out, or to simply
> allow him to return to the game as if nothing had happened at all.
>
> Well even though he was the fish, I was glad to see him go. What a horrible
> display of behavior and I couldn't believe that noone had said anything, not one
> word. They all just sat there as if this was just a common and acceptable thing
> for a poker game.
>
> Well...noone said a word about it to me and noone seemed to be bothered about
> him leaving the game but I don't know. I just felt that I had to say something.
> This poor dealer was almost going to cry and it took her a good minute before
> she even considered on calling the floor.
>
> (I know this guy that was thrown out for "LIFE" for throwing cards in a dealers
> face. This took place in A.C. about 5 years ago and he moved out to Vegas and
> never returned).
>
> What would you guys do? Would you speak up? Or would you try to keep this big
> fish in the game by not saying anything?
> Be honest. I'm just curious. Maybe I should have just let it go and said
> nothing, but in my heart of hearts, I didn't want my poker to ever interfere
> with my outside life- and for me, that means to never compromise my values for a
> game of poker.
>
> Needless to say the game was not as good after he left, but...........oh well.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 4 POKER
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, 4 POKER, 16. Jun 2003 22:02
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Don,

Thanks.... really.





Dave
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, MozMan, 16. Jun 2003 21:44
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BRAVO! Hat's off to you.

Here in AZ, I feel fortunate that the cardroom I play in doesn't stand for that kind of crap.

To be perfectly honest, I might actually have said something to that goon as soon as he tossed the cards; but of course, that would also have been the wrong thing to do. I dunno, maybe I could have thought better and not confronted him on the spot, but at the very least, I would have asked for the floor myself. And if asked if the cards were thrown hard enough to hurt, I would certainly have had a long talk with the floor about how that question is completely irrelevant.

I don't mean to sound like I talk tough... that's really not it at all. I too grew up in a house full of women (three older sisters, my mother and grandmother)... and we are Sicilian. So that kind of treatment of a woman is simply intolerable. In addition, I was a wimpy kid, and didn't learn that people don't have the right to treat other people that way until my late 20s... so I guess now I try to make up for lost time.

Anyway, I applaud you. You did the right thing, and $$ has nothing to do with it. It's ALWAYS the right thing.

-Moz

"Great. I've got a trig midterm tomorrow, and I'm being chased by Guido, The Killer Pimp."
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, 4 POKER, 16. Jun 2003 22:07
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on 16. Jun 2003 21:44 MozMan wrote:
> BRAVO! Hat's off to you.
>
> Here in AZ, I feel fortunate that the cardroom I play in doesn't stand for that kind
> of crap.
>
> To be perfectly honest, I might actually have said something to that goon as soon as
> he tossed the cards; but of course, that would also have been the wrong thing to do.
> I dunno, maybe I could have thought better and not confronted him on the spot, but at
> the very least, I would have asked for the floor myself. And if asked if the cards
> were thrown hard enough to hurt, I would certainly have had a long talk with the
> floor about how that question is completely irrelevant.
>
> I don't mean to sound like I talk tough... that's really not it at all. I too grew
> up in a house full of women (three older sisters, my mother and grandmother)... and
> we are Sicilian. So that kind of treatment of a woman is simply intolerable. In
> addition, I was a wimpy kid, and didn't learn that people don't have the right to
> treat other people that way until my late 20s... so I guess now I try to make up for
> lost time.
>
> Anyway, I applaud you. You did the right thing, and $$ has nothing to do with it.
> It's ALWAYS the right thing.
>
> -Moz
>
> "Great. I've got a trig midterm tomorrow, and I'm being chased by Guido, The Killer
> Pimp."


Hey Moz,

Yeah, they don't tolerate this behavior where I usually play at either and that's in Atlantic City.

I guess we have something in common here. Many sisters and we're both Italian!
I'm not sicilian though, but Italian nonetheless!!

Thanks Moz.



Dave
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What??!, Easy E, 17. Jun 2003 05:20
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"To be perfectly honest, I might actually have said something to that goon as soon as he tossed the cards; but of course, that would also have been the wrong thing to do"

Are you KIDDING me? what is WRONG with confronting an asshole? I'd have been all OVER him verbally as soon as it happened... and you'd better BELIEVE that the floor would have come running once they heard me scream....
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Re: What??!, shorn, 17. Jun 2003 05:24
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Me too. He ruins the table experience for everyone so I would rather win less/lose a little and have a nice time doing it then win a lot and be grumpy the whole time. I hate people like that.
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Re: What??!, MozMan, 17. Jun 2003 08:27
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on 17. Jun 2003 05:20 Easy E wrote:
> "To be perfectly honest, I might actually have said something to that goon as soon as he
> tossed the cards; but of course, that would also have been the wrong thing to do"
>
> Are you KIDDING me? what is WRONG with confronting an asshole? I'd have been all
> OVER him verbally as soon as it happened... and you'd better BELIEVE that the floor would
> have come running once they heard me scream....

Please understand that I say it would have been the wrong thing for ME to do, because my motive would have been to escalate it, and violence has no place at the poker table.

It's really hard to say, not having been in the situation, but if I believed I could keep it civil (verbal) and put his sorry ass down without leaving my seat, then I would do it; but I suspect I would be leaving my chair and removing my glasses as I was speaking and THAT's why I think it would have been the wrong course of action.

Of course, if he had been using foul language a lot before that, I would already have informed him of his dire need to relax or leave... so I would have been really uptight at this point.

-Moz

"Great. I've got a trig midterm tomorrow, and I'm being chased by Guido, The Killer Pimp."
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Re: What??!, stdioh, 17. Jun 2003 10:20
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Now Easy...in all fairness, I'd say that having polite dialogue with this moron would be ok. As for slamming into him full throttle, that's not going to do any good. It'll probably only agitate him more and make you look bad.
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Sorry, can't be easy when, Easy E, 17. Jun 2003 10:50
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someone's abusing and assaulting dealers, just because they are an idiot.
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Re: Sorry, can't be easy when, stdioh, 17. Jun 2003 12:56
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Fair enough. I guess my thought on the matter are that anything that I should get really worked up about, should already be in progress with floor people. I've never been in a situation where anything like this went on without major crap coming down on the player from the house. Hey, I've been asked to take it easy when mucking assertively (as in non-projectile ... just hard down to the table).
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Re: What??!, SKinner, 17. Jun 2003 13:25
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on 17. Jun 2003 10:20 stdioh wrote:
> Now Easy...in all fairness, I'd say that having polite dialogue with this moron would be ok. As
> for slamming into him full throttle, that's not going to do any good. It'll probably only
> agitate him more and make you look bad.

"Never argue with a fool; someone might see you and think you are the fool."
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Re: What??!, stdioh, 18. Jun 2003 09:24
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When you are arguing with a fool, what is he doing? The same thing.
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, DJpoker, 16. Jun 2003 21:51
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Hey 4 Poker,
Congrats on being a bigger and better man. As I can tell from your posts, you play an intelligent game. It is very admirable of you to stand up for the dealers (especially considering what a fishie the guy appears to be.) Maybe I'll run into you someday. I don't live too far from the ol Commerce Casino myself. Good luck out there.
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, 4 POKER, 16. Jun 2003 21:59
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Hey DJ,

I look at it this way. ..fish or no fish, there's always going to be plenty more of them so if I cause one of them to leave because of an inexcusable behvior, than so be it.

And if you're going to the Commerce any time soon, I'll be in town until Sunday.
The place really is great- the best poker state in the country. I guess this type of thing can happen anywhere, though.


Take care, and thanks.



Dave
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, DJpoker, 16. Jun 2003 22:10
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If i can make it up there this weekend, I would enjoy meeting you. Good luck finding nemos. Look forward to discussing strategies as time goes by and I get my feet damper. My Uncle is a 20 year Hold em Player so I'm getting off to a pretty solid footing. My only drawback will be time because I can't quit regular job yet. Oh have you played in any of the Cal Poker Championship tourneys the past 2 weeks or is that a dumb question lol???
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, Giocatore, 17. Jun 2003 01:52
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4 POKER,

I think you did the right thing. What struck me even more about your story was that NO ONE else at your table said a word to that guy, let alone stood up for the dealer. It really says something about the society we live in nowadays, doesn't it? Male or female, no dealer deserves to have cards thrown into his or her face, let alone be subject to verbal abuse by inconsiderate morons who don't have a clue. I still can't believe that everyone at your table acted as if it were no big deal. That is just sad. Bravo for doing what you did, and "buona fortuna" at the tables during the rest of your trip.

Giocatore
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, 4 POKER, 17. Jun 2003 02:55
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Giocatore, hmmm........ are you a "player"? (Italian)

Thanks for your comments.
yes, sadly enough, not many people would defend the dealer when something like this occurs.
It just goes to show you that you can't judge a book by its cover, I guess. This man was about 60 years old, he was dressed impecably, and he seemed to have a decent disposition. Unfortunately that was not the case.

When I did say something to this man, my voice was rather low as I did not want to bring any further attention to him, but I wanted him to know that his actions were totally inexcuseable. I thought by bringing it to his attention that just maybe he would have at least appologized to the dealer, but no such luck.
He was a genuine, A-! jerk.

I guess this is just one of the drawbacks when you're constantly surrounded in an atmosphere where so many people are losing money.

Oh well, I suppose there are just too many ignorant people out there....c'est la vie....






4 POKER





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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, shorn, 17. Jun 2003 04:59
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You no doubt did the right thing. There is no place for his type of rude behavior in the game. Frankly, whether or not he was the fish, as soon as he is gone, the game itself should take on a friendlier feel which may compensate for his lost action. Obviously, this isn't why you speak up, but potentially a side benefit.

Dealer abuse is ridiculous and should never be tolerated. I think it is the duty of all players to speak up when something like this happens.
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I would have INSISTED that he be thrown out, Easy E, 17. Jun 2003 05:18
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there are plenty of fish out there. If you can't act older than 3, then you don't meet the minimum age limit to be in a cardroom anyway.
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, chasepoker, 17. Jun 2003 05:30
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You Americans must have longer fuses than over here in England i am pretty sure that if someone did that to a girl over here they would be lucky not to be leaving in an ambulance. I for one would 'have had a word' with the guy what a ****.

Did you all not just go "that guy has to leave this table right now or something bad will happen " ? I dont wish to sound like a tough guy but i know that me or any one of my friends would have made an issue of it right there, floorman or no floorman.

Is this just a case of me overreacting and having too much testosterone ?

" I just want to say one thing to my wife at home, yo Adrianne i did it "
Chasepoker
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, Risky Business, 17. Jun 2003 07:00
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I'm Italian as well, but had no sisters. Worse, I had older brothers, so I was always put in my place when I acted up.......and in turn do the same to others now.

Confrontational may be the only play here, but only for the purpose of drawing attention and making sure the situation doesn't blow over quietly. As someone already said, get the attention of the house......they'll inquire to what's going on, then the scowl will turn to him, not you. (You'll probably get a nice round of applause and some bottom dealing later!!)

p.s. The reason we have longer fuses here is because you don't know what kind of maniac the guy might actually be. With any type of weapon readily available, you really have to think before you approach the most extreme responses.


on 17. Jun 2003 05:30 chasepoker wrote:
> You Americans must have longer fuses than over here in England i am pretty sure that
> if someone did that to a girl over here they would be lucky not to be leaving in an
> ambulance. I for one would 'have had a word' with the guy what a ****.
>
> Did you all not just go "that guy has to leave this table right now or something bad
> will happen " ? I dont wish to sound like a tough guy but i know that me or any one
> of my friends would have made an issue of it right there, floorman or no floorman.
>
> Is this just a case of me overreacting and having too much testosterone ?
>
> " I just want to say one thing to my wife at home, yo Adrianne i did it "
> Chasepoker
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, chasepoker, 17. Jun 2003 08:25
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Good point i need to remember that if i am planning on not getting shot whilst over in the USofA !!!

> p.s. The reason we have longer fuses here is because you don't know what kind of maniac
> the guy might actually be. With any type of weapon readily available, you really have to
> think before you approach the most extreme responses.
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, stdioh, 17. Jun 2003 10:22
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I think there would more likely be some confrontation in Canada, though that depends. I think the American uninvolvement phenomemon comes from the ability to sue for millions of dollars when somebody hits you. Up here that doesn't fly and frivolous lawsuits (ie lawsuits that don't win) often result in criminal charges of "use of the law as a weapon" ... which means that when somebody deserves it, you can do something about that sort of thing.
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, TKarrde, 17. Jun 2003 06:24
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Great post 4P!! Nice to know that poker isn't completely about the money with you. I was worried when I read the title of your post that I was going to have to confess to downloading hundreds and hundreds of MP3s and other software from the internet for "free". Whew!

TKarrde

"You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian (Mozman) when death is on the line!"
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What Goes Around..., mkpoker, 17. Jun 2003 09:34
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4 Poker,

You unquestionably did the right thing for the right reasons. Intolerable behavior is just that, and we all have a responsibility to stand up. Poker should be fun--and jerks like that ruin a good time, even if you're winning.

But I think it's a false choice to suggest you chose morals over money--because what comes around goes around. Imagine if you hadn't told the truth to the floorman. Essentially, you would have been falsely calling the dealer a liar. She would have remembered that insult, and she would have told her dealer friends. Instead, she remembers you as a quality patron who stuck up for her when she was under attack. She'll remember that too--and so will the floorman.

Hence, if a situation arises in the cardroom where your integrity is questioned, you can count on the benefit of the doubt from the staff. Plus I'd bet you'll get a few extra smiles, comp points and those little "extra" intangibles that add up.

Just looking at it from the business perspective, you may have taken a small hit last night, but your actions will pay you back many times over in the future.
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, gary ford, 17. Jun 2003 09:44
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Congratulations Dave, and welcome to California.
Some 25 years ago, i started playing lowball at a very small card room in San Diego. A regular player was noted for his bad behavior when losing. I challenged him on more than one occasion. One night he blew up , leaving the cardroom and telling the manager he was going home to get his gun. He never returned. Just last week an older man , fogey type) tried to intimidate the dealer. The issue involved a new player,something we will be seeing a lot of, and bewildered him. I called the fogey down on it and he shut up and never said a word.
The point is , the game is being revolutionized and is going mainstream. The supply of fish is already growing rapidly, and needs to be nurtured.Poker is essentially a social game, but boorish behavior will deplete the fish supply. We all need to do what Dave did and protect not only the dealers ( a moral issue ) but the new players ( a financial issue )

Gary

P.S, I am not Italian and have no sisters
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, gary ford, 17. Jun 2003 09:45
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Congratulations Dave, and welcome to California.
Some 25 years ago, i started playing lowball at a very small card room in San Diego. A regular player was noted for his bad behavior when losing. I challenged him on more than one occasion. One night he blew up , leaving the cardroom and telling the manager he was going home to get his gun. He never returned. Just last week an older man , fogey type) tried to intimidate the dealer. The issue involved a new player,something we will be seeing a lot of, and bewildered him. I called the fogey down on it and he shut up and never said a word.
The point is , the game is being revolutionized and is going mainstream. The supply of fish is already growing rapidly, and needs to be nurtured.Poker is essentially a social game, but boorish behavior will deplete the fish supply. We all need to do what Dave did and protect not only the dealers ( a moral issue ) but the new players ( a financial issue )

Gary

P.S, I am not Italian and have no sisters
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, gary ford, 17. Jun 2003 09:46
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Congratulations Dave, and welcome to California.
Some 25 years ago, i started playing lowball at a very small card room in San Diego. A regular player was noted for his bad behavior when losing. I challenged him on more than one occasion. One night he blew up , leaving the cardroom and telling the manager he was going home to get his gun. He never returned. Just last week an older man , fogey type) tried to intimidate the dealer. The issue involved a new player,something we will be seeing a lot of, and bewildered him. I called the fogey down on it and he shut up and never said a word.
The point is , the game is being revolutionized and is going mainstream. The supply of fish is already growing rapidly, and needs to be nurtured.Poker is essentially a social game, but boorish behavior will deplete the fish supply. We all need to do what Dave did and protect not only the dealers ( a moral issue ) but the new players ( a financial issue )

Gary

P.S, I am not Italian and have no sisters
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, gary ford, 17. Jun 2003 09:49
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OOPS
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, stdioh, 17. Jun 2003 10:24
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You can delete the duplicates by clicking on the recycle bin beside each one.
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, stdioh, 17. Jun 2003 10:18
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See, here's my opinion on obnoxious bad poker players. They are not good for the table. What is the reason? Well, let's look at a character at Brantford named Green. He's an absolutely terrible player, sucks around on the 10-20 and 20-40 and I don't believe that he is capable of posting a win. Needless to say that he get very big hands fairly often because he stays in with any draw and plays tonnes upon tonnes of hands. He's great to have at the table, except for his behaviour. He angle shoots. For instance he'll hold the nuts and bet the river, then say, "Sorry can I take that back?" knowing full well that he can't, inducing a call. Well, that's not the worst thing. Then he'll sit on his cards and when shown a good hand will shake his head and sit around until the dealer is about to sweep his cards. Then turn over the nuts and then berate the other player. He fold his cards by leaving them in front of him and not protecting them, so the dealers have to guess as to when he's relinquishing his hand - he'll never toss them right into the muck. He causes arguments with other players. He argues about the minutae of the game to no end. A new player will sit in the game with $190 and he'll strenuously object that a new player needs $200 to sit down, slowing up the game. It seems like he'll do everything to slow down the game.

So what does this add up to? Well, recreational players hate him and will leave the table when he shows up. Nobody wants to play with him except the winning players that want to pick on him as a fish. Well, I'm not about to play at a table with 1 fish and 8 winning players thanks. I'm heading off to another table when he shows up. Not only is he an ass, but now only 25 hands or so get played in an hour.

So what would I have done in your position? Well, first I would have tried very gently to talk some sense into the fish. I would have said something like, "Hey pal. That's really hard luck. You should hear some of the things that have happened to me today. Don't you hate it when the cards are everywhere but on you?" followed shortly by, "Hey, it's not her [the dealer's] fault - we're all here to have some fun, so lets cool it off, eh?" Now if the guy continued to be a dick and was the only fish, I'd get a table change if I could.

Now lets say that I continued to play until the incident and they came to ask me. Well, I'd definitely tell the truth, but I'd stick to the facts. I'd say that hes, he did indeed throw his cards into the dealer's face. Did it hurt? I have no idea...only she knows if it hurt. Yes, I'd want to see them drum the guy out for 2 weeks and hopefully he'd learn his lesson. If they decided instead to charge the guy with assault, I wouldn't want to be the one responsible for that charge being laid.

I guess my point is that I would want nothing to do with the player and I certainly wouldn't lie to keep him in the game. Is there a time to lie to the floorpeople? Maybe, but I've never seen it happen. When would I try to keep somebody in the game? Lots of times.

For instance, the 20-40 a few months ago had a player in it that I would describe as a middle class man who had elevated himself out of some terrible American ghetto. Not only was he a bad bad poker player, but every second word out of his mouth was mother______. It was mother______ this and mother______ that and he was loud. Little old ladies were complaining. The floorman warned him and warned him again and then told him to get the hell out of the casino.

Now, one of the 20-40 players, a regular and a solid pro, got between the guy and the floorman. He put on a great lawyer act, first telling the floorman that he would control this barbarian and then placating and mollifying the barbarian himself. He was saying, "Hey man. It's all good. They're just sticky about language. Lets just tone it down and have some fun." He managed to keep this goon in the game (which was stocked with 8 other pros). The floorperson didn't have to mind too much because he had flexed his muscle a little and knew that everybody at the table was going to do everything they could to keep this guy quiet. Likewise, he knew that without this one player the table would break (it was late) and there would be $140/hour less session fee coming from it.

This was a case of player intervention saving face for both the floor and for the player and getting a situation out of control. And the result was good for the house, the other players, those not at that table, and the poker economy. Not only that, but the guy has been back since and has been more or less in somewhat decent control of his behaviour. He keeps the 20-40 profitable for the best players and that keeps them off the 10-20 and that is just fine by me.

Long story short, I think that any of us who play regularly in a room have as much responsibility as those who work in the room. We must be ambassadors to poker. It is part of our job to keep new smiling faces that enter the room happy and coming back with their spare income. It is also our job to keep the rotten apples more or less in line. In your case 4, it was your responsibility and duty to bear honest witness. That guy was probably costing the cardroom economy more than he was contributing because any time he played he was probably driving away a bad player, some of them for good. Players who know they will lose only play as long as they are having fun. Piss them off and they'll head to pai gow.
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, Wren, 17. Jun 2003 10:54
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4 POKER -

I think you definitely made the right decision, and I would like to think I would have done the same thing as well. What I would hope would be that a supervisor would notice something like this so another player wouldn't have to put him/herself in an awkward spot to bring it up first. But it most DEFINITELY shouldn't go unnoticed or not dealt with, regardless of the "fishiness" of the player at fault. Dealer abuse disgusts me - it should be absolutely intolerable.
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, TKarrde, 17. Jun 2003 11:00
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Whoa!! She lives. Congrats on the job!!

TKarrde

"You fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never to get involved in a land war in Asia. And only slightly less well known is this: never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line!"
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, Wren, 17. Jun 2003 11:39
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Tanx! Looks like I'm not going to be a professional poker player after all :O)
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, TKarrde, 17. Jun 2003 11:56
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on 17. Jun 2003 11:39 Wren wrote:
> Tanx! Looks like I'm not going to be a professional poker player after all :O)

Did you hear that? I think Hellmuth, Cloutier, Chan, Ferguson, and Seidel gave a collective sigh of relief!!!

LOL :)

TKarrde

"I'm a Mog. Half man half dog. I'm my own best friend!"
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, stdioh, 17. Jun 2003 12:59
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Dealer abuse is bad, but I still defend the right of any player to verbally abuse dealers who are terrible (and I mean that in terms of incompetence, not "giving bad cards") ... and that still doesn't extend to shouting them down or anything. But IMHO, there is absolutely nothing wrong with telling a dealer that you think they are doing a terrible job. Best way to guilt them into doing a better job or at least finding gainful employment elsewhere. I think that is a responsibility of the player as well.
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, stdioh, 17. Jun 2003 13:00
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I'm reminded of a line I once said to Bruce at Brantford, "Well if you were the second worst dealer in this casino you wouldn't have exposed the card in the first place."
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, 4 POKER, 17. Jun 2003 13:34
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Stdioh,
When the game is not ran smoothly(and that by all means the competance of the dealers as well), then bad things will happen....pots won't be split up correctly, players will be acting out of turn, abusive language may not be handled properly, and so on. There is no question that the dealer has a tremendous responsibilty in the game.

However....A person should never have the right to be abusive in any way, whether it be a verbal comment or a physical act of abuse..
When a player has a valid reason for questioning the dealer, he should do so. But if the problem is not resolved and it is causing chaos in the game, then that player should contact a floorperson and not take matters into his own hand. That is why floor people are there.





4 POKER
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, stdioh, 18. Jun 2003 09:26
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I'm of the opinion that there is a fuzzy line here. Name calling shouting and violence are all definitely out, but I think that a verbal dissparagement is marginally acceptable.
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, Mojo702, 17. Jun 2003 17:05
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on 17. Jun 2003 10:54 Wren wrote:
> 4 POKER -
Dealer abuse
> disgusts me - it should be absolutely intolerable.
>

I'm a Blackjack dealer in a strip casino in Las Vegas, and as far as dealer abuse is concerned: it depends how much money you have to lose. Now I know the house makes ALOT less money thru poker, so it may be different, but management puts up with SOOO much more abuse to the staff from a player betting/losing thousands than from a player betting/losing $25 at a time. At a corporate meeting last year, human resources and our general counsel (hotel lawyer) says ANY abuse from a player will not be tolerated;casino personnel laughed at him.
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, stdioh, 18. Jun 2003 09:28
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I've never seen a blackjack dealer take as much abuse as other blackjack players though. It is rare to see somebody blaming a dealer for giving him a bad shoe, but when you split your 8's against a dealer ace (correct move) and some dumbbunny after you think you should have hit, then catches a bad card and loses $500, prepare to duck and cover. The worst part of that is that it makes it hard to keep track of the count :)
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, MozMan, 18. Jun 2003 09:41
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Well, funny part is, some people actually think that BJ is a team sport. I may not be playing 'against' the other players, but I am certainly not teaming up with them. When I play BJ (rarely, just for entertainment) it is for me. I only play the lowest minimums; and have had fools who want to bet the limit every hand try to berate my play. I tell them, if you don't want to play with bad players, then place your $200 bets on a $200 table, not a $5 table.

-Moz

"Great. I've got a trig midterm tomorrow, and I'm being chased by Guido, The Killer Pimp."
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, stdioh, 18. Jun 2003 12:18
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Oh, I'll play team blackjack, but certainly not in the sense of "taking one for the team" as the players on the game. I'm thinking more in terms of signalling the gorilla when the deck gets hot and letting him wander over with purple chips.
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, Mojo702, 18. Jun 2003 16:21
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You are absolutely right that many of these players think BJ is a team game. As a dealer, when Player 1 starts to berate Player 2 for a play that didn't make him money, I tell Player 1 that it's NOT a team game and since Player 2 has money on the table, he can do what he wants. They sure don't like to hear that. And they HAte to be told there are other tables with "better" players for them to choose from....
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, 4 POKER, 17. Jun 2003 12:49
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To all who responded,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and it was nice to hear that there are people out there that put their own values and morals first and would not compromise them for anything.

It seems that more times than not I am the one that opens my mouth when it comes to protecting the dealers and also the players in whom I am playing with, It just surprises me that noone ever has anything to say, it really stinks. But I look at it this way... If I can be true to myself and stand up for what I believe to be the right thing, then so be it- and if anyone wants to question me for speaking up and causing someone to leave the game(a fish in this instance), then that will be their choice.

But if I had to do the same thing again....I would, no question about it.

I think that everything should run as smooth as possible when you're in a poker game, and when everyones' happy and polite to one another, (or at the very least, civil) is the only time that this could happen.
When bad things like this happen....everybody loses and it's that simple.

Did I lose a few extra bucks because of his absence? Maybe. But what makes up for that is, I stood up for what I believed in, and being a professional poker player means exactly that...being a PROFESSIONAL and acting like such at all times, regardless of the almighty dollar. My reward was far greater that night than any monster pot that could have come my way, period. My morals came first and what that does for me as a person and a player is this...it allows me to live with myself when I go home each night, and that is what matters the most...at least to me anyway.

When we can make the correct decissions/choices at ALL times, is when we will truly be able to succeed...in a poker game AND in life.

Thanks again for taking the time to listen to my story.
Unfortunately it is one that will be repeated as we can't control the reactions of people, but when they are put in their place hopefully, and I say hopefully, they will realize that poor behavior and down right disrespecfullness will not be tolerated...not as long as I am in the game.




4 POKER
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Re: Morals. Would You Compromise Them For $$ ?, Poker Crone, 18. Jun 2003 19:55
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I too want to thank you belatedly for your courage and honesty. I am a woman who plays poker, and who sometimes gets more than her share of hostility at the table because some guys can't stand losing to a woman. One night a drunk fish was losing badly to me -- it was one of those things where I was in with solid draws that he was too drunk to evaluate, and I was catching like crazy. His wife was sitting next to him, egging him on about being whupped by a woman. I took his abuse and his money, turning $40 into $600 in 5 hours at 3/6 HE, but when he said "Blow me," I'd had enough, and quietly asked the dealer to intervene. He left our table shortly thereafter, and later he got kicked out, from another table.

I too want to keep my spirit intact-- today I saw a picture in Card Player of Aces and Queens and got a rush in my belly, and I asked myself, am I loving them now more than God? I find it helps to give 10% of my winnings to good charities -- then it isn't all about me, and the more I win, the more I can give.
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