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Server Time: 9/7/2008 8:29:31 PM PACIFIC |
 Hold 'em vs. Omaha H/L, SKinner, 16. Jun 2003 09:34 | ||
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| Friends, I am relatively new to poker. Been studying Hold 'em for about 8 months or so. Been fishing at the $1-$2 tables for the last 3 months. Plan to move up as my bankroll increases. I find such differing attitudes about the game. People like to play for fun. Some people play for money. Personally, I don't get that much satisfaction out of flopping quads, or getting that straight flush that invariably brings all the "nh"s out in chat. My point is that I don't care about big hands...I care about big pots. I'd much rather win a big pot with a set while watching two other players in a raising war, each with 2-pair, than to flop quads and get no action. Clearly, I am in the "play for money" category. So here's my question/request for advice. I don't know Omaha H/L very well. However, I have heard that the reason so many people play hold em is because "any two cards can win". Fish love this. In Omaha H/L, however, I understand that starting hand are MUCH more important. The other thing I have heard is that for a strong (not even strong, but just solid) Omaha player, the money is much better. Meaning, the fish that swim in the Omaha rivers pay much more dearly than the ones that swim in Hold em rivers. Is this true? What are you opinions on the money aspect of Omaha H/L vs. Hold em? Is it worth learning? Following that, what books do you recommend for learning Omaha H/L? I have read Lee Jones' Low Limit Hold 'Em book. Like I said, I'm in it for the money. Hold Em is fun, but if Omaha is more lucrative, I think maybe I'd like to learn it. Thanks, SKinner | ||
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| Re: Hold 'em vs. Omaha H/L, noiseboy, 16. Jun 2003 09:54 | ||
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| Omaha 8 is definitely worth learning. Since it is High and Low, and you receive four cards, people who don't understand the game will find reasons to play many hands that simply are unplayable and big losers long term. What's so great about O8 is that oftentimes in Hold'em, a bunch of people who are drawing against you with garbage will make you a dog, even with the best hand. In O8, however, oftentimes they are drawing dead. I'm still amazed when I'm playing O8 and I have the nut low and nut high, someone bets, I raise and get four people calling me to the river! Also, it doesn't take long to learn which hands to play, you won't be an expert, but learning the basics you can be good enough to win money from the fish in no time. The great thing is that having more than one game to play gives you options, sometimes the Hold'em games are tough but the O8 is soft, sometimes it is the reverse. The best place to learn all the basics for free is Steve Badger's site playwinningpoker.com. After that you can consider which books you want to get. | ||
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| Re: Hold 'em vs. Omaha H/L, 4 POKER, 16. Jun 2003 11:36 | ||
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| I think that you should read as many books as possible gaining the knowledge that you'll need to play all the games. You really shouldn't concern yourself however about the size of the pots you win. You should strictly concern yourself of playing solid cards and in the right position (best odds),and know when to press a hand and/or release a hand, and the rest will take care of itself.(you must have the ability to know when to maximize yor betting and to know when to minimize your losses. But that can only come from experience). Omaha hi-low is definitely a good game and like I had mentioned earlier, when you are experienced in this game(and a solid player IS a strong player...just wanted to add that in), then you'll have a bigger edge in this game than you would in hold-em. Now...ifyou have tremendous reading abilities and can really read your oppnents well, than hold-em could be a very profitable game for you. Because in that game, you're playing everyones hand...not just your own. The difference between the two games is this, Omaha is more of a grind it out type of game because you must sit very patiently to wait for a premium hand, and there are going to be many split pots(which is not the case in hold-em). All that being said...when you chose to play very strong starting hands in Omaha hi-low, when you DO enter the pot, you'll be getting much the best of it and you will win more pots that you're involved in because your starting hands were ones that were based on "All your cards working well with each other". You may not understand exactly what this implies quite yet, but when you read up on this game and play the game for yourself, and can get the true feel as to how the game can best favor your hand selection, you will realize that this is a game of "the nuts" and if you can possess both patience and knowledge, you'll be way better than most of the Omaha players in your game. MOST inexperienced and lower limit players are playing far too many starting hands and really aren't aware as to where they are on the flop. Well...when you play solid cards, and are aware of the possible combinations that can favor and or not favor your hand, you won't be putting in bets unless you're getting the best of it. What I mean exactly is this...a good Omaha player KNOWS when to release his hand and when to play it hard. BUT, the novice player does not. And THAT is when and why you'll be getting a big edge. There's some valuable reading material out there on this game and in the back pages of CP magazine are lists of all forms of poker books. Read as many books as possible and the one book that I would recommend is by Ray Zee. (Omaha hi-low for advanced players). There are other books as well; ones that are more for the beginner, so check them all out. Steve Badger also has a site where he talks about this game. The more info you can get your hands on and the more experience you have, will only help you to be a better and hopefully a winning player. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Hold 'em vs. Omaha H/L, Big_Slick, 16. Jun 2003 12:02 | ||
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| Hey 4-P, A few questions... the object of Omaha is to obviously scoop the pot. What percentage of pots that are won would you say: 1) Have a qualifing low 2) Are high only 3) Get scooped by just one player How many times do you find yourself in a position to only win half the pot and decide to fold your hand? What type of situation would make you do that? Thanks for your time! | ||
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| Re: Hold 'em vs. Omaha H/L, 4 POKER, 16. Jun 2003 12:46 | ||
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| Hey Slick, ...Exact percentages? Me?...ugh! (LOL) Anyway, I'll do my best to clarify some things for you. It's approximately about 40% (?) that a qualifying low will appear on the board. What the exact %'s are of a pot that is scooped by one player is not known by me and it really has very little importance to the game. Math and %'s are important BUT knowing the exact %'s of a time when a pot will be scooped will not change how you should play your cards preflop. There are thousands of combinational hands so to know preflop what the %'s would be in scooping the pot is not as realitive. The thing you SHOULD concern yourself with in this game is playing cards that have strong possibilities in working in BOTH directions. Let's say you're holding A-2-3-K. That hand can go in both directions; a made low, a made high(wheel), and the nut straight(A-K-Q-J-10). So when you play cards that have extreme scoop possibilities and/or ones that favor the whole spectrum of the cards, then you will have more opportunities to scoop. You may not necessarily scoop the pot, but you will be giving yourself more and/or better chances in achieving that. That's all you need to think about. You asked how I would handle a situation in knowing that I was only going to get half the pot, correct? Because this is a split game, and many times this will occur; you must FIRST be aware of how many players are involved in the hand; If you're only going to get 1/2 the pot but you're NOT in a heads up situation, then you'd STILL be making money from the other player/s that contributed to your half, still yielding you a profit. So there's nothing wrong in only getting half, as long as you can still earn from that pot is what matters. Now... You must have a great read on the other players as to KNOW when you're getting quartered and if so...would you still be making a profit if you were to continue calling the remaining bets. You see, there's nothing wrong with getting quartered if you can still extract a profit. You must know that if there are exactly four players in the hand with you and you do get quartered, (which means, only ONE other opponent shares the same side of the pot with you,and that can also mean the high side as well), then you will break out dead even for that hand. And sometimes you would have already comitted too many of your chips to even consider folding in this spot, so the correct call would be to call so you can at least win back the money that you had already invested in the hand. BUT... if there are more than 4 players in the hand with you when the pot is obviouly going to be split...than you'll still be MAKING a profit on the hand, so it would be correct for you to continue calling and or even RAISING the pot now. Now, if after the flop, I feel that my hand does NOT have a good enough chance to earn me a profit, than I'll fold. EVEN IF I were to flop the nut low draw, because if I don't have strong enough outs and are not getting the right odds to continue, than I will cut my losses right there and not put any more money into a pot where I feel that my overall rate will leave me in a -EV. Now... I have also been is situations where I did flop the nut low but I was certain that more than one other player also flopped the nut low as well, so I was able to just toss my hand away. (especially knowing that my hand had no or very little chance at scooping the high end). But you must be very experienced in this game to make such a laydown when flopping the nut low. And when you put in a ton of hours in Omaha, you WILL know when you're going to make a profit on a hand and you'll also know when to release one as well. Making "moves" in this game like, raising someone out of the pot so you can leave yourself in a situation where it's just you and one other player, and you KNOW that the other player involved with you has the low but you're trying to push out someone else who might have a decent high hand but NOT strong enough to call a raise with- and that is when you can try to knock the high side out, go heads up with an opponent who shares the same side of the pot with you, but you ALSO have a semi-decent hand for high as well,(like a big pair or something), and that would put you in a situation now to 3/4 him because you'll be getting one half of the pot for your high hand, and you'll also be getting a 1/4 of the pot from the low side, thus leaving you with 3/4's of the entire pot. And that will yield you a great profit. So even though scooping is preferred(obviously), knowing how to maneuver your opponents so you can get 3/4's of a pot is also a smart and profitable way of playing this game. But like I said, ALL of that comes from experience and having a really good feel for the game. And even though the %'s may slightly not be in favor of the low draws...when you chose to play really strong hands, you'll have increased the odds/%'s of sharing in some of the profits- whether the profits be the entire pot or just a piece of the pot...when you can extract money from the hand you're involved in and are AWARE as to when you can not, is when you'll be able to make a good earn. Hope this helps. 4 POKER | ||
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