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Server Time: 8/20/2008 5:03:08 AM PACIFIC |
 Loose Aggressive Killing Me, Risky Business, 16. Jun 2003 09:34 | ||
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| Is it me? Is it boredom? Is it the cards? Is it the shoes? I started off fine when the table could be categorized as 'loose passive', but once everyone got a few courage beers in them (no pros here), I started to give it back. I wasn't drinking this time, and my cards got worse, but how could I tighten up if I was already 'coals-into-diamonds' tight !! Do I just suck it up this time and hope my cards improve at the right time next game? | ||
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| Re: Loose Aggressive Killing Me, flintsword, 16. Jun 2003 10:46 | ||
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| Give us a few examples (say three) of hands where you got "killed" despite playing tightly in a LP table so we can take a look. Include as much detail as you can about the play, players, and what was played and why. The key here is to exploit the "loose" while not getting deep-sixed by the "aggressive". flintsword | ||
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| Re: Loose Aggressive Killing Me, Risky Business, 16. Jun 2003 11:36 | ||
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| Fair enough... It's L-A that's beating me, not L-P. I'm OK losing L-P because I'm buying enough other pots, or usually on a draw and there's no money out there besides what I make them put in. 1. It's a limit game, and I'm tossing less than premium hands preflop, keeping approximately a top 10 - top 15 only (5 handed game of nobody more than 3 years experience) The occasional reach for glory works into about 1 of 15 hands as well, depending on position. 2. When I'm out I'm patting myself on the back when the flops don't come. I toss J-10 suited to see 1 overcard and 2 rags. I proceed to watch the K-5 off's of the world pair up and win. 3. I stay in with my low pairs and suited connectors that I've decided to play because they'll pay off huge if hit, and preflop bets are cheap. When I don't hit, I fold, but when they do.......I'm beat by the worst of draws to flushes, straights, and boats. Your request of 3 hands could be summarized with... 1. full houses at the river beating my nut flopped straights, calling and re-raising all the way home with only 2 pair. 2. straightening up at the river after i flop mid-pair set and I pound the pot to try to get them out. 3. losing top pair to bottom set that hits at river. Obviously, folks calling my weed out raises with 2 or more overcards staring them right in the face. Are you writing this down, note-takers of UPF: I never want a showdown, whether I have the best hand or not!! If you are in a pot with me, you'll have to decide if it's worth it. (Thus, my preference for NL) Now that I re-read this, I think it's more of the players mentality that I'm playing with, though the 2 most recent games have been with 12 different people. I suppose playing with all kinds helps, rather than encountering a new style when it really matters. | ||
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| Re: Loose Aggressive Killing Me, MozMan, 16. Jun 2003 11:59 | ||
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| Hey Risky- From your posts, it always seemed to me that you were a pretty LA player yourself (so I can see why you really like NL tourneys, BTW). I suspect that being LA works really well when you are at a LP, or even TP table... but you will experience bigger, longer swings when you find yourself at a LA table; especially when there are aggressive fish at the table who will chase anything... when they lucky, they run for what seems like an eternity. The only adjustment I can think to make (and it will work, if you can make yourself comfortable with the idea, as it really isn't your style) is to shift to T-A. By playing tight and aggressive, you're really only it when you have them and you have the best odds against getting out-drawn; by being more aggressive, you make the aggressive fish pay TREMENDOUSLY for staying in it with you. Now, here's the downside: Playing TA at a LA table is boring at best. At worst, you feel like an outsider because you seem to be missing all the action (chips are flying like a tournado every betting round and you have no cards); but the payoff is, when you are in it, you are going to drag those pots. Your swings will be long and slow on the downside, and high and fast on the upside. It can be a really frustrating way to play; so if it bothers you that much, you may be better off leaving the game and finding one that is LP. If you do leave the game, remember that is a very valid decision: nothing at all wrong with it. I personally like playing at LA tables, because I play very TP and I have a lot of patience; but sometimes I will leave them because my patience or focus is not really what it needs in order to survive. -Moz "Great. I've got a trig midterm tomorrow, and I'm being chased by Guido, The Killer Pimp." | ||
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| Re: Loose Aggressive Killing Me, flintsword, 16. Jun 2003 21:09 | ||
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| MozMan has a good recommendation, but rather follow his line, I'll take a different tack here, on the premise that you "can't" adapt to a LA game by shifting gears completely to TA as MozMan suggested. I note a number of things from your post. (1) You are focusing on the general bad beats rather than the actual situations. (2) I don't get that you are comfortable with large swings in results in a LA game. (3) Limit games are open to a certain amount of autopilot as far as playing hands in a LA. Specifically, (1) Forget the bad beats, ... they are interfering with your objective, to adapt to the game. They will happen. Tighten up a little and see if this starts to turn the ship around. (2) Relax and take the longer term view. If you are indeed making good choices for hands in the right position, you will win in the long run. That said, I am ALWAYS examining and revising my play, since improvement generally comes from unlearning bad habits and gaining new ones. This is why I suggest a slight tightening up because I think that is an easy test. (3) Change tables and get new players. Say "Hi guys and good luck!" What you are describing fits pretty closely to a table that has no respect for your raises. Start tight and win a few pots so the players "know" you are raising with something. Understand that I am working with really limited information here, so some of these points should be taken as "food for thought" rather than the gospel. Think about the problem coolly and objectively. Open up your behaviours at the table. Take the position that your hand selection is cracked (I think mine is perpetually under repair!) so you can really look at it. An engine really doesn't work, ... start taking it apart. Like an engine, sometimes a lighter foot on the accelerator will make you hear, or see, something that otherwise, ... you would miss. Hope this helps and didn't sound too condescending. Just trying to pick the problem apart and give you a different perspective. Good luck! flintsword | ||
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| Re: Loose Aggressive Killing Me, MozMan, 16. Jun 2003 21:57 | ||
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| Good post Flint... One more thing I would like to add: if you do decide to try to tighten up and adjust, you will need to get used to really long, really boring sessions. I'll give you an example: The 4-8 games at my B&M are very LA (and the 3-6 are LP... it's kind of weird, actually). Anyway, when I decide to play 4-8, I always make sure I have at least eight to ten hours to kill, and I always make sure I have enough cash to buy in at least 3 times (I normally buy in for $100, so I make sure I've got $300 with me). I do this because I know I will get sucked out a lot, and I need the time and money to ride that out to the point where I can come out ahead. -Moz "Great. I've got a trig midterm tomorrow, and I'm being chased by Guido, The Killer Pimp." | ||
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| Re: Loose Aggressive Killing Me, Risky Business, 17. Jun 2003 07:15 | ||
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| Thanks posters - A wrap up here... Though I was in game that changed to LA, I still consider MY game (in this case) TA. I've already passed the point of being so frustrated at losing draws that I've moved my personal game to TA, from LA.....can't live with the tilt inducing swings. The biggest point that I've taken from these posts is that I should be showing my power more. By mucking, I plant the bluff seed, which in this game can only get me in trouble later. I suppose I'll muck my plays, but not my power, and let them try to figure it out. Finally, I think Moz said it......I am indeed becoming more and more comfortable with folding 20 straight hands if my gear happens to be in TA. Each time I play, that comfort level goes up, which will only save me money in the long run. Thanks again. on 16. Jun 2003 21:57 MozMan wrote: > Good post Flint... > > One more thing I would like to add: if you do decide to try to tighten up and adjust, you will need > to get used to really long, really boring sessions. > > I'll give you an example: The 4-8 games at my B&M are very LA (and the 3-6 are LP... it's kind of > weird, actually). Anyway, when I decide to play 4-8, I always make sure I have at least eight to ten > hours to kill, and I always make sure I have enough cash to buy in at least 3 times (I normally buy > in for $100, so I make sure I've got $300 with me). I do this because I know I will get sucked out a > lot, and I need the time and money to ride that out to the point where I can come out ahead. > > -Moz > > "Great. I've got a trig midterm tomorrow, and I'm being chased by Guido, The Killer Pimp." | ||
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