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Server Time: 3/20/2010 2:57:32 PM PACIFIC |
 How would you play this?, Big_Slick, 14. Jun 2003 19:52 | ||
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| I was dealt 9-9 in middle position and limped in without raising. There was a ton of callers... probably 7. The flop came 9-5-6 all spades. (I have a history of flopping a set with a coordinated suit.) Someone bet and when it came to me, I raised. I guess I wanted to try to protect my set but after the hand was over, I realized that if anyone had the flush, it would have been a little late to drive anyone out. Not that you can drive anyone out of a 3-6 game with a come hand anyway. Of course, there's nothing stopping a 4th spade from hitting either which gives anyone with a spade a shot at the pot. Well, I got lucky and the fourth 9 came on the turn giving me quads (so sweet). However, I was wondering how many more callers I might have had if I hadn't raised on the flop. Of course, the best I was hoping for was to rope in a full house. Anyways, do you raise after the flop in this situation or do you simply remain passive and call? Also, would you have raised pre-flop with a set of nines in middle position? I usually don't raise pre-flop unless I have a high pair. If I have a middle pair in late position with no players, I'll raise. Thanks in advance. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, psuasskicker, 14. Jun 2003 20:22 | ||
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| I would never raise from middle position unless no one else had called to that point and the game was tight enough to get it to one or two opponents if not steal the blinds. With middle pair like that, if you get any more than one caller your only hope almost is flopping a set, so you want lots of callers. The raise wasn't too great a raise with so many people seeing that flop. It's questionable how much you want to stay in that hand as it is, unless you think someone's representing a flush that doesn't have it and are quite sure no one else does. But you've also still got outs. I don't remember the exact odds of chasing a boat with a flopped set. But you've got the two cards on the board (6 total cards), plus the fourth nine, plus the possibility of runner runner pair to boat you. And with top set, it looks pretty good that if your boat hits, it's going to be good. If you'd hit, say, bottom set, that might be a hand to drop being that even if your boat hits, the only people generally staying in hands like that till the end are guys with the flush already, guys drawing to powerful flushes (A or K of that suit), or guys on a boat draw. So it may be a hand worth drawing to, but if you're going to draw to it, it's definitely a situation where you want as many callers as possible to beef up the pot and your pot odds if it hits. I'd have called or folded that bet, not raised. - C - | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, Swagman, 15. Jun 2003 05:24 | ||
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| You played the hand properly if it was your intention was to win the pot. Theres only 2 hands that are gonna stand a bet in the first place and thats a made flush or a player with a high spade. You only need fear a re-raise with a nut flush, and I would have called a re-raise becuase your hand represents likely the best full house. Also your raise likely bought you the rest of the streets unless another spade dropped, so if your hand improves you bet the hell out of it, if not you get to go to the river for free. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, psuasskicker, 15. Jun 2003 07:59 | ||
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| The "free card" is a possible reason to raise in this situation, but you should ask yourself which you'd prefer. 1) A free card, which the original bettor may not give you, plus the risk of a reraise, where everyone is knocked out of the betting. 2) Extra callers. You have to weigh the chances of your being able to successfully get a free card on the turn in this situation. In this case, here's where I could see you getting a free card vs. getting reraised... Free card: - If the original bettor had a small flush (say a free play on the BB with 94 spades). Reraise: - Someone behind you has a big flush but not an Ace. - The original raiser has a big flush with or without the Ace. I have to reread Sklansky and Malmuth's chapter on the free card, but this is a situation where I'm not so sure you'd get one. Not sure enough to throw a raise in there, that's for sure. If I were the original bettor, and had as QJ spades...well first I'd probably go for a check-raise with seven people in the pot and me being one of the first to act. But if I bet outright with that hand, I'd undoubtedly reraise if I were raised from behind. If I were reraised again, I'd check and let them take the action. If not, I'm betting outright the next hand. If I'm holding 9x spades and get raised, I'll still bet the turn regardless of what hits because I don't want to give anyone the free card. I don't think going for the free card with a raise here is a good play because I don't think there's enough of a chance you actually get it compared to the extra callers you could get to boost the pot size by not raising. - C - | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, Swagman, 15. Jun 2003 17:02 | ||
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| You really shouldnt fear a re-raise in this situation, cuz you will representing the best full house. Also your not gonna get alot of callers in this pot. Maybe if your approaching the game to make more money then maybe a raise is more appropriate at the turn provided another spade doesnt drop, however, I think this is inferior for a couple reason. one being your now only looking at one card to improve your hand. Just cold calling is an option to but you are liable to spend more money (at least 1 extra bet doing this.) | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, psuasskicker, 15. Jun 2003 19:33 | ||
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| on 15. Jun 2003 17:02 Swagman wrote: > You really shouldnt fear a re-raise in this situation, cuz you will representing the best full > house. You mean representing the best flush? Cause after that flop, a boat isn't a possibility. The problem with a raise here is that with seven people in the pot, it's hard to represent a hand that you don't have anything close to. If there's a high spade behind you, they could easily reraise you. If the original bettor isn't that great a player and figured that his Ace high flush should just bet and get a lot of callers, he'll definitely reraise. Even worse is if you run into someone with a medium spade flush that puts you on an attempt to garner a free card on the turn, and pumps the pot with a reraise to make you pay dearly if it doesn't hit. The other thing is, why do you want to represent that powerful hand in this situation? Now you're talking about running a bluff, and why do you want to run a bluff with a hand that could easily be made best? More than that, do you think you could bet a flush out of the pot at any time? So your bluff has no added value. A raise in this spot on that flop is far too risky and doesn't bring the value that could be associated for laying down a drawn out beat on made flushes. You're removing callers from the hand that make the pot larger if your hand hits, and taking the risk of running into a real flush that could make it very expensive for you to draw to your hand. There are two likely scenarios here... 1) You call, and there are maybe two or three other callers the whole way. If there's one bet on every round, except your raise on the river, you get say five bets on the flop, four double bets on the turn, and maybe four or six double bets on the river if one or two people fold...assume one does. In a $5/$10 game, that's $125 in the pot after the flop (not counting the 7 pre-flop bets), for which you paid only $35 for, and would only have paid $15 to fold the river if your hand doesn't hit. 2) You wind up getting reraised or just called and knocking everyone out of the pot. Let's say you get reraised, and the turn is bet, and it's only you and the original bettor. Now there's only $30 on the flop, $20 on the turn, and $40 on the river if your hand hits for a total of $90 for which you paid $45 of if your hand hit, and paid $25 if it doesn't and you fold at the end. In the first case, you get around $90 in profit, and pay only $15 if your hand doesn't hit. In the second case, you get only $45 in profit, and pay $25 if your hand doesn't hit. I believe the far more profitable play here is to play it weak, call the bet on the flop, and look for your hand to hit to win a big pot. - C - | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, Piers Majestyk, 15. Jun 2003 20:04 | ||
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| I would probably just call in this situation and see how the hand develops. I'm going to the river regardless. If you pair up on the turn then fire in your raise. If I don't help on the turn but nothing scary pops up I would probably raise anyway unless there was substantial action on the flop. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, Big_Slick, 15. Jun 2003 20:06 | ||
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| I agree. Good post. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, Swagman, 15. Jun 2003 20:23 | ||
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| Well going back to my original post. I started of with the statement: if your intentions were to win the pot, then I'd raise on the flop. I still stand by this. This may sound a bit obtuse. But although sometimes I may have a hand with a good likelyhood of winning I will opt not to make a stab at the pot. With seven people in the hand I would play it as you discribe, however, there is a greater likelyhood of failure. And although you do not have the baot on the flop you a drawing to what will likely be the best boat if the board pairs itself. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, psuasskicker, 16. Jun 2003 14:30 | ||
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| on 15. Jun 2003 20:23 Swagman wrote: >if your intentions were to win the > pot, then I'd raise on the flop. I still stand by this. This may sound a bit obtuse. But although > sometimes I may have a hand with a good likelyhood of winning I will opt not to make a stab at the pot. > With seven people in the hand I would play it as you discribe, however, there is a greater likelyhood of > failure. And although you do not have the baot on the flop you a drawing to what will likely be the best > boat if the board pairs itself. A few questions: 1) How would a raise on this flop help you win the pot? The only way I could see an outright win is if a blind got a free play with two small suited cards, bet the flop to see what was there, believed you had the flush, and dumped and no one else had the flush. Even then you may have to contend with people drawing to a high flush and still might not win the pot. 2) How is there a greater likelihood of failure by allowing more people in the pot? If your hand hits the boat you've got the nut boat and can only be beaten by either quads, or if an overpair happens to hit a boat. The odds of both are significantly lower than the extra money you win by garnering callers, not to mention that someone that hits quads would have a set and likely drawing to a boat regardless of your raise. The only quads you could raise out of the pot would be a runner runner suckout draw...not likely. - C - | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, Mark, 17. Jun 2003 09:08 | ||
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| > 1) How would a raise on this flop help you win the pot? The only way I could see an outright win is if a > blind got a free play with two small suited cards, bet the flop to see what was there, believed you had the > flush, and dumped and no one else had the flush. Even then you may have to contend with people drawing to a > high flush and still might not win the pot. By raising, you may drive out weak hand that have the chance to draw out on you, or small made flushes, because you are representing a strong hand. By letting these hands stay in, it is much more likely someone will give you a bad beat. > > 2) How is there a greater likelihood of failure by allowing more people in the pot? If your hand hits the > boat you've got the nut boat and can only be beaten by either quads, or if an overpair happens to hit a boat. > The odds of both are significantly lower than the extra money you win by garnering callers, not to mention > that someone that hits quads would have a set and likely drawing to a boat regardless of your raise. The only > quads you could raise out of the pot would be a runner runner suckout draw...not likely. > > - C - The answer is the same for both questions. mark | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, Mark, 17. Jun 2003 09:09 | ||
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| > 1) How would a raise on this flop help you win the pot? The only way I could see an outright win is if a > blind got a free play with two small suited cards, bet the flop to see what was there, believed you had the > flush, and dumped and no one else had the flush. Even then you may have to contend with people drawing to a > high flush and still might not win the pot. By raising, you may drive out weak hand that have the chance to draw out on you, or small made flushes, because you are representing a strong hand. By letting these hands stay in, it is much more likely someone will give you a bad beat. > > 2) How is there a greater likelihood of failure by allowing more people in the pot? If your hand hits the > boat you've got the nut boat and can only be beaten by either quads, or if an overpair happens to hit a boat. > The odds of both are significantly lower than the extra money you win by garnering callers, not to mention > that someone that hits quads would have a set and likely drawing to a boat regardless of your raise. The only > quads you could raise out of the pot would be a runner runner suckout draw...not likely. > > - C - The answer is the same for both questions. mark | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, Mark, 15. Jun 2003 20:12 | ||
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| Raising pre-flop with 99 is not a bad play. Some pro's advocate raising in that position, some don't, so it really depends on your play, image, and how the table would react. If you do raise and get 7 callers, that is great, because your odds of floping a set are 7.5:1. With 7 callers, your implied odds are huge. As for a the flop, a raise is definately in order. you want to drive out single high spades and str8s. You don't want to give these hands a chance to beat you (they would likely call for a single bet). If you get re-raised, you can simply call. You have 7outs to a boat(or better) for the turn, and 10 for the river. The pot odds are definately there for calling any re-raises on the flop and a raise on the turn. You were right to protect you hand with a raise. If you didn't, it would be very easy for some one with a str8 or medium/high flush card to stay in the hand. If a 4th flush card fell instead of your case 9, someone with a flush J may have stayed in and taken the pot. Also, your raise may eliminate baby flushes. Mark | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, Swagman, 15. Jun 2003 20:35 | ||
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| As usaul someone stated exactly what I was trying to say better. So take Marks advice. By raising your increasing the likelyhood of winning this pot. However I would not play this hand that way. I would play it as psuasskicker describes. But thats just me. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, flintsword, 15. Jun 2003 21:17 | ||
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| In MP having 99 with that kind of flop, I think a raise is mandatory, if only for the information a raise will give you. Those seven callers are going to pay to draw cards to their str8 or flush, and that is the idea here, ... make it expensive for the drawing hands. Mark's comments are bang on, ... your pot odds are super to raise and even if you are facing multiple sets, drawing to a full house, ... you have are drawing to the nut boat (or more surreal, the nut quad ... lol) flintsword | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, Roy Cooke, 16. Jun 2003 01:01 | ||
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| I would raise the flop with this hand....It is big enough it may very well be good.......If it is not good it can't be in too bad a spot......Raising MAY save you the pot in some situations.......The fact that the fourth nine came and you may have won a bigger pot in THIS situation if you had checked is just Monday morning quarterbacking.....You made the overall right play. Roy Cooke on 14. Jun 2003 19:52 Big_Slick wrote: > I was dealt 9-9 in middle position and limped in without raising. There was a > ton of callers... probably 7. The flop came 9-5-6 all spades. (I have a history > of flopping a set with a coordinated suit.) > > Someone bet and when it came to me, I raised. I guess I wanted to try to > protect my set but after the hand was over, I realized that if anyone had the > flush, it would have been a little late to drive anyone out. Not that you can > drive anyone out of a 3-6 game with a come hand anyway. Of course, there's > nothing stopping a 4th spade from hitting either which gives anyone with a spade > a shot at the pot. > > Well, I got lucky and the fourth 9 came on the turn giving me quads (so sweet). > However, I was wondering how many more callers I might have had if I hadn't > raised on the flop. Of course, the best I was hoping for was to rope in a full > house. > > Anyways, do you raise after the flop in this situation or do you simply remain > passive and call? Also, would you have raised pre-flop with a set of nines in > middle position? I usually don't raise pre-flop unless I have a high pair. If I > have a middle pair in late position with no players, I'll raise. > > Thanks in advance. > > | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, stdioh, 16. Jun 2003 10:42 | ||
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| You need to raise here to protect your hand. It works like this. You've got the nut nonflush right now, so if nobody has you beat then you want more money in there. There will definitely be people in there with 1 spade, so you want to fold as many as them as possible so as not to be drawn out on. And you have a 1/3 chance of tightening up, in which case you will hold the lock tight and will have great implied odds. So the long and short of it is that you made the right move and were also lucky enough to turn the eternal nuts...unless somebody made a straight flush of course. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, shorn, 16. Jun 2003 10:59 | ||
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| Not to be picky, but if an overcard to the 9 comes on the turn and then the board pairs on the river (other than the 9) you won't necessarily be holding the lock tight. However, that doesn't change the fact that you should raise now to (1) make all the lone spade draws pay through the nose to hit and (2) build a nice big pot for your self when you do improve. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, Mark, 16. Jun 2003 11:09 | ||
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| Good poind Shorn, but raising the flop may drive out that overpair. mark | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, shorn, 16. Jun 2003 11:29 | ||
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| Potentially, yes but I don't know that many players holding AA or KK who would throw away that hand right away. In fact, one of them might actually hold a high spade too. And, if they don't, they may 3-bet the flop for you to eliminate and spade draws out there (or try). Again, I think you made the right play by raising and potentially the raise can get a strong player to fold the overpair. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, stdioh, 16. Jun 2003 14:19 | ||
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| Indeed. And if somebody else holds quads when the board pairs this is the case too. Notwithstanding, you have reasonable doubt that there will be a better hand out there. | ||
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| Re: How would you play this?, randallt, 16. Jun 2003 11:38 | ||
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| I think that you have to raise the initial bettor in this situation. Not only does any spade on 4th street beat you, but any nonspade in the neghborhood makes someone a straight. Being a 3-6 game, a vast amount of players will call a single bet with any spade, especially if it has a pair or gutshot possibility. My experience is that while flopping a set is a rare occurrance, this wasn't one of those boards where you would try to attract business, but one where you'd like to win the pot as quickly as possible. That set of nines could have cost you quite a bit by waiting till the turn to get aggressive. Finally, my experience with low limit players is that you always have one or two who are willing to pay you off, no sense in getting tooooooo greedy. | ||
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