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Server Time: 2/12/2012 5:13:14 AM PACIFIC |
 betting on top two pair, hudson, 14. Jun 2003 17:31 | ||
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| I have only been playing poker for a few months--I quit boozin' and doin' blow and needed a replacement fix--so forgive me if this question seems imbecilic... I'm at the 6-12 table and cold-call a raised pot in the big blind with A9o. The game is weak and the raiser is a pop-up book bettor who is in 5th position so I put him on middle suited connectors or at least an ace with a better kicker than mine (he has already slowplayed middle pairs and trapped me with trips a coupla times, so I rule out a middle pocket pair). The button and small blind both cold-call and the first two in now fold. Down to four of us. I am only in this hand to see two pair or a set flop and of course it falls Ad9c5d. The small blind checks and then I make what I believe is a mistake and bet, rather than check-raise the original raiser to semi-bluff. So he just calls and then the button and small blind both fold. Fourth Street is the 3d and now I am stuck. This time I try the check-raise and he just checks. The river doesn't bring the boat and I check and fold. How badly did I misplay this hand? Be kind... | ||
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| Re: betting on top two pair, Scrubbie, 14. Jun 2003 18:31 | ||
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| Welcome Hudson, I am going to take a different approach to this question then the others will. I always say, the first big hurdle to overcoming a problem, is acknowledging it. The fact that you know you totally blew this hand (Make sure you are sitting down when you read everyone's posts) is the first step to recovery. ... As you have successfully done with the boozin and blow. (*** me patting you on the back***) I will leave the dissection of your play to the others (I see them hovering over now) and leave you with THREE helpful tips! ... When in this situation again (you misplayed your hand,) my advice to you is to look at how much money is in the pot!!! When there is a lot of money in the pot and you have a big hand, you call and take the bad beat. You would have had $60 (minus the rake) in the pot! It would have only cost you 12 to call, seeing as you can't be raised. You may very well have won. My second tip is to start a notebook, and take notes. This way you remember for next time. When you are new, you are overloaded with info. OK, I don't really have a third, but you know how everything comes in three's. Scrubbie "I'm the one who put the satin in your panties" | ||
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| Re: betting on top two pair, mongi, 14. Jun 2003 19:26 | ||
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| I would have bet the flop into the raiser with the hopes that he had a big Ace and raised me to get the other two players out of the pot. If he did raise me and it was down to just us I would reraise to take control of the hand and see were he is at. Assuming he didn't raise me back I would then bet the turn I would not give him a free card. He could have raised with something like QQ and hit a Q on the river to beat you. Give him a chance to fold. He could also hold a single diamond and hit a flush at the river if you don't bet. In this situation he did not raise you. He may have a hand like JJ or maybe he was slowplaying his AK. Heads up I would not be too concerned about him having a flush. Bet and win the pot now before he gets lucky. If he raises I would call him down. good luck | ||
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| Re: betting on top two pair, psuasskicker, 14. Jun 2003 20:40 | ||
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| I'll go against mongi's advice in how I mention this, but think Scrubbie has a great idea with starting a notebook of all your lessons learned. It also helps that in the bigger money games the losses hurt enough that you tend to remember them anyway. My first reaction is the same as Scrubbie's...you know you badly misplayed the hand which is a terrific first step. Some thoughts on the hand: - I definitely would have looked to check-raise that flop as I can't imagine an aggressive player that you described checking that flop when it's checked to him. I'd say it's 90/10 that he bets in that scenario, and a check-raise let's you take total control of the action. - Sklansky and Malmuth advocate just what you did when the scare flush card hit on the turn, so I don't believe you misplayed it if you were truly worried about the flush. You check your hands with outs and bet the ones with no outs. That way, if you get bet into, you can call and see if your outs hit for only one bet. If you bet and are raised, it costs you two bets to see if your out hits. If you have no outs, and you are raised, you can fold on the spot. If the other player doesn't have the case hand (flush in this case), when you bet, he'll be just as scared of the case flush as you are, so he could easily fold as well. On that turn card, I check and call a bet. - The river was your real mistake. Here's a lesson you MUST take very seriously. DON'T ALWAYS FEAR THE CASE HAND! The biggest problem was that your misplaying the flop meant you couldn't get a good read on his hand. His calling your bet could easily have put him on the flush draw. If you check looking to check-raise, you can more easily determine if this is what he's on or not. But you can't always fear that someone has you beat just cause you don't have the nuts. Maybe he really was on the flush draw. But with $72 in the pot and $12 to call, are you THAT sure he had the flush? You're getting 6 to 1 pot odds with a pretty strong hand. I feel there's no way I'd have folded that hand. I can't imagine he'd have slow-played the turn if he caught the flush. It is more than likely he was on a high pocket pair or less and you would have had him beat. It certainly would have been worth the pot odds to see if he was bluffing at it. You have a hand that can very well more than beat a bluff...it's undoubtedly a check and call hand when the turn isn't bet when the flush card hits. As a rule, you (or anyone) should never bet the river when someone will call you only when you are beat. The one exception to this is in a complete bluff. I guess you could also do the same against a complete fish that will call anything. But in general, you made the right move checking the river. However, you should have called that bet. I don't think he had you beat. GL in the future! - C - | ||
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| Re: betting on top two pair, Big_Slick, 14. Jun 2003 21:10 | ||
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| Hey Hudson, Psuasskicker made some great points. What I don't understand is why you were willing to check-raise on the turn when your opponent could have had the flush but yet you weren't willing to bet on the river when you checked to him. Personally, I don't think he had the flush. Most players don't raise pre-flop thinking that they are going to hit a flush. This doesn't mean that he couldn't have had a 20 that was suited. I think if he had the flush, he would have bet it on the turn. Especially since you checked. The bet he made on the river was made because you checked. He was hoping to scare you out of the pot and it worked. Anyways, welcome to poker. One minute you are going to think you are a genius and the next you're going to feel like a moron. I experience this every time I play. Check out my thread above "How would you play this." I make mistakes a lot. The important thing is to learn from them. Goodluck! | ||
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| betting on top two pair - thanks to those who replied, hudson, 15. Jun 2003 12:42 | ||
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| Hey yawl-- Infinite gratitude for the objectivity, advice, and the encouraging words, not to mention resisting to the unbearable urge to ridicule my rookie blunder. I had to race off to work and serve drinks to a pack of wild amateurs last night or I would have replied earlier. Also, in my rush I forgot to include the curious conclusion to my "blush" flush story... After I checked and folded my A9 on The River I mucked my hand and while it was certainly an act of gamesmanship rather than etiquette, my opponent actually flipped over one of his cards: Jd. I suppose I'll never know if I indeed nailed his suited connectors pre-flop and saved myself three bets by playing the way I did (thereby amplifying my error in failing to check-raise the flop) or he really had pocket princes or AJ (thereby really cranking it up on my moronic move to fail to call the 6-1 pot odds on The River. Alas, so it goes. At any rate, I think that my strength (as far as I can see after only playing for ten weeks or so) is reading my opponents hands and my weakness is the apprehension of playing my own. Thanks again for the welcome and the replies...I'll definitely stick around and keep playing. Who knows--a sober bartender might just be the profile of a successful poker player someday. After ten years of dealing with the pathetic lot that passes as the general public, I certainly have a psychological advantage right from the starting pistol. Thanks again. | ||
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| Re: betting on top two pair, stdioh, 16. Jun 2003 10:38 | ||
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| Badly. First of all, when you bet out there, that is an ok thing to do in that you are making people pay for their draws, but really you want to checkraise this hand. Chances are good that he is on a big ace and you want to drive out draws or make them pay too much. When you checkraise him you can almost guarantee that the others between you will fold out. You are great against another made hand but bad against a lot of draws. Still, your betting out was bad. Now on the turn you want to bet out. Since you bet out originally you were signifying that you had a good hand - at least an ace. When the flush comes to the board that does not guarantee that somebody else has it and what you are afraid of is a 4-flush coming to the board. If there is a flush out there, they will let you know by raising and you can decide what the chance is that they legitimately have a flush and what your implied odds are if you make your tight and then can decide whether or not you want to call. The point is that if you bet out and just get callers, chances are that you are good. Now on the river you don't want to bet out, but if everything has played out as it did you can probably call a river bet here and have a good chance of winning the thing, however, since you bet when the flush came, chances are excellent that nobody will bet the river without a flush and you won't have to pay that extra bet. The long and short of it is that on a scary board you need to agress when you have a reasonable chance of having the best of it. | ||
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| Re: betting on top two pair, hudson, 16. Jun 2003 11:03 | ||
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| thanks s... ...check out my second post in this thread just before your reply...is it possible that he had an offsuit A to go with his Jd and was semi-bluffing hope to catch a fourth diamond or did i read him correctly pre-flop...this hand happened a coupla hours into the sessions and he had yet to raise with a pocket pair but raised three times with mid-to-high suited connectors...am i relying too much on betting patterns? rookie error to put so much stock in betting patterns at a low-limit table? | ||
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| Re: betting on top two pair, stdioh, 16. Jun 2003 14:14 | ||
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| ok. I've read it. Here's the scoop on single card revelations. Nobody ever shows one card unless they are trying to mess with you. Thus, you can be fairly sure that one of the following is true. If you fold and are shown one good card, it means that the other card is trash and the opponent was bluffing or playing with something fairly weak. Who would show you one card of the hand that had you beat? I assume this when somebody shows me one card. They don't want me to know what the other card is - therefore the other card is what I would not expect it to be. Another case of the one card attempt, I find is when somebody has AA and wants to hide their strength. Lets say that Johnny has AA and the flop is K74. Johnny bets, Jimmy raises, Johnny 3-bets and Jimmy calls. Now the turn brings another ace. Johnny bets and Jimmy calls. The river is a 2. Again Johnny bets and Jimmy calls. Johnny has to show his set of aces to win the pot, but he just shows one ace, hoping that Jimmy will muck his KQ (or whatever) and that he won't have to show his second ace. So when somebody does this you can assume that they either had 2 pair and don't want to show it or that they had a weak kicker and don't want to show that. Essentially, you know that they are hiding something. Now when somebody shows their one card unprovoked, it is to tell you the opposite of what you were thinking. So when he folds you on the river and shows you Jd it means that he almost certainly had trash, but is telling you "see, I had you beat" ... the reason for that is that he wants you to fold next time he puts a move on you so he's trying to give you positive reenforcement the beest way he can - by showing you one card and letting you guess that he must have had the other. He probably had something like JJ. | ||
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| Re: betting on top two pair, Scrubbie, 16. Jun 2003 14:22 | ||
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| Stdioh do you agree with my logic, for begining players who aren't sure what to do at the river in a case like this ... they should look at the pot and see how much money is in there? If there is a ton of money, and it will only cost one more bet, it is almost always the correct move to call with Top pair of better. Your thoughts ... | ||
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| Re: betting on top two pair, Big_Slick, 16. Jun 2003 20:25 | ||
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| Any time you make it to the river and are faced with a large pot, if you think you have any reasonable chance of winning, you should bet. Moreover, lets say that there is $100 in the pot. You are head to head with some bozo. You check and he bets. It will cost you $6 to call. The ratio here is roughly 17:1. If you think that your opponent may try to bluff more than 1 time in 17 hands, you should call. | ||
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| Re: betting on top two pair, stdioh, 17. Jun 2003 09:41 | ||
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| No! If there is a lot of money in the pot and there is any reasonable chance of winning then you should call a bet on the river, but you shouldn't necessarilly bet. You should only bet the river if you think that your chance of being called and still winning is greater than your chance of losing. If you're holding top pair poor kicker, who will call your river bet and not beat you? Likewise, if the board is 4h5hAs9s6h, there is just no way you should be betting the river with A9. Yes, you have top 2 pair. Yes, you'll win if there isn't a flush or straight out there, but there is just way too much potential that somebody made their hand. Even if you have position, this is time to check, as it is a classic place for a checkraise by a beginner who doesn't understand how hard it shoudl be to successfully checkraise the river. Bet when you hold a good flush or maybe if you yourself have made the top straight and don't think that anybody is on the flush. Even bet with a bad flush, but don't bet with 2 pair here. | ||
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| Re: betting on top two pair, stdioh, 17. Jun 2003 09:38 | ||
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| In general, yes. But it does depend a lot on the board. I would say that if the pot is gigantic and nobody has already called a river bet then you can call 1 with top pair good kicker or better. The exception is if the board is showing a 4-flush that you have no piece of or a 4 striaght that you have no piece of. Likewise, if you are holding something like A3 suited and flop 2 pair, but get counterfeited, there isn't much point in calling a river bet with your top pair no kicker (lets say the board is 3477A) if somebody has been betting all the way. Basically, the move for the beginner should be that on the river, when in serious doubt, call. But don't be too cavalier about always calling the river when you have top pair. | ||
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| Re: betting on top two pair, hudson, 16. Jun 2003 14:25 | ||
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| thanks s, it has taken me three days and three posts to realize that david copperfield was well aware that i was aware that he had only been raising on sui-cons and trapping on p.pairs and he bluffed me out on the river and is clearly a far better player than me, thinking on a tier above mine...mission accomplished...at least i left the game a few hands later realizing that it was too tough...when we sit down again together hopefully he is not you... thanks again... | ||
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| Re: betting on top two pair, stdioh, 17. Jun 2003 09:43 | ||
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| GRIN. I'm very seldom found playing online and when I am it is usually either fishing around badly at microlimits as a stress reliever (yes, I find it fun to play lots of hands at $0.25-$0.50) or in tournaments where I'll play decently. Generally I'm only to be found online at ultimatebet and there my name is the same as here. | ||
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