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Server Time: 12/3/2008 12:11:32 PM PACIFIC |
 hand advice, questionguy, 13. Jun 2003 10:13 | ||
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| I would like to hear your thoughts how to play the following two hands in limit hold'em (the game was typical to loose-passive): 1)I was in bb w/ A9s, someone open-limped from late position and the cutoff and sb also limped so checked and got a freeplay. The flop came A33 rainbow, the sb checked, I bet my top pair/weak kicker, and everyone folded and I won a small pot. 2)I was 2 seats from the button, w/ ATo, a middle position player open-limped, I limped, the cutoff and button folded, the sb limped and the bb checked. The flop came A88 rainbow, everyone checked to me, I bet my top pair-avg kicker and everyone folded and I won a small pot again. These two hands occurred in the same session and got me thinking that perhaps I should have checked instead of betting in both instances. It seems that by betting I could only win a small pot, but I could lose more than I could win if someone held the trips and ck-called me. If I check, someone else may pickup some kind of hand (either a draw or another paint hits and someone makes two pair- an inferior two-pair to mine). If someone had the trips or an A-higher kicker (unlikely b/c no preflop raise), I'm going to lose anyway, so I may as well check it and allow someone to pickup a 2nd best hand that would warrant calling to showdown. I bet on flop=I win small amt or I lose medium amt after the trips ck-call me on flop and I get suspicious and then I shutdown and simply ck-call; or I check on flop=I win medium size pot b/c some1 picks up 2nd best hand or I lose medium size pot (same reasoning as before) thanks, quesionguy | ||
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| Re: hand advice, trwebb26, 13. Jun 2003 10:28 | ||
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| You played it exactly how I would have. The reason - if you don't bet you give the other people the chance to catch or even worse... maybe they are check-raising you!!! By betting - you find out if people really have cards. If they stay in it - you have to make an information bet to check the strength of your hand. They could have flopped the full house or trips and are taking you for a ride. On a side note - this is one of my favorite flops to bluff at. Watch for the bluff. | ||
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| Re: hand advice, stdioh, 13. Jun 2003 10:56 | ||
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| Yes, this is a great place to bluff the turn and money can be made this way against weak opponents. For example, flop is A33 and I'm holding JQ - it has missed me completely. Now it is checked around and bet by a late position bettor who wouldn't be holding any hand that included a 3 unless he already has A3-suited (and even that is unlikely) or he's got 33 for quads already. Lets say also that the A is unsuited to the 3's on board. Now I just call him, knowing that he's on something like AJ or a medium pair - most likely 88 or 99. Turn is just about anything and I checkraise him. Now I'm not going to have to worry about any chasers calling 2 and they guy is pretty weak, but solid. He sees the checkraise as me having a 3 and he figures he's drawing to an ace. Now he pitches his cards. If you get a good read on his medium pair then you are semibluffing to boot since a jack or queen will bring you a winner. The warning here is that if he calls you on the turn he's very unlikely to fold the river. He knows that he would be drawing to 2 or 3 outs and he won't put in the money to see one more card and then let it go. Thus if your checkraise gets called you probably shouldn't waste your money betting the river. This is all very dicey however and really depends on your opponent and your read. For instance there's one fellow who folds a lot of turns with great hands because he gets checkraised and only raises turns with total monsters. Thus, if I'm holding something like TJ on a flop or 23T and am facing him on the turn, I will checkraise, knowing that he will bet his AT and fold to a checkraise unless he has me totally dominated in which case he will 3 bet and I can fold. If he has a draw, he'll always check after me and I'll know not to bet the river and not to call him if a scare card rivers. Normally I would be betting my TJ out here, afraid of giving a free card, but this guy telegraphs his moves enough that I don't want to bet to him. If I bet my TJ then he would just call with his AT and I wouldn't know where I was in the hand. | ||
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| Re: hand advice, stdioh, 13. Jun 2003 10:46 | ||
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| You played them fine. You can't let somebody else catch up. The problem here is that if somebody calls you they might be slowplaying an 8 and you're screwed so you can't press them on the turn. The chance of somebody being on a worse ace is pretty small too. Basically what you have to do is bet and hopefully take it down there and then check the turn if you don't. If there is real action you have to be willing to pitch on the turn - depending on the player you might call them down. | ||
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| Re: hand advice, mkpoker, 13. Jun 2003 11:03 | ||
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| I concur with everyone. Slowplaying two pair is a needlessly greedy move here. Also note that on hand#1, someone could have been on an inside straight draw--no sense in giving them a free card. | ||
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| Re: hand advice, Wren, 13. Jun 2003 10:56 | ||
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| You played each hand just fine. As far as I'm concerned, betting out on the flop in each case is pretty much automatic. You don't WANT people seeing the turn where they'll have the opportunity to pick up strong draws or made hands. Your hand is likely the best, but it's vulnerable. As for the possibility of someone holding trips - if you get called or raised, or called and then bet at on the turn, you'll have to reevaluate things depending on who's raising, your position, etc. The more experience you have with the game, the easier decisions like these become. | ||
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| Re: hand advice, Paul Stine, 13. Jun 2003 11:53 | ||
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| on 13. Jun 2003 10:13 questionguy wrote: > I would like to hear your thoughts how to play the following two hands in limit > hold'em (the game was typical to loose-passive): > > 1)I was in bb w/ A9s, someone open-limped from late position and the cutoff and > sb also limped so checked and got a freeplay. The flop came A33 rainbow, the sb > checked, I bet my top pair/weak kicker, and everyone folded and I won a small > pot. > I like it, by gum! You got a free look, hit your top card, made a bet and won the pot. This is what you wanted to do, right? Sounds like a perfectly played hand to me. What else could you want, a caller? > 2)I was 2 seats from the button, w/ ATo, a middle position player open-limped, > I limped, the cutoff and button folded, the sb limped and the bb checked. The > flop came A88 rainbow, everyone checked to me, I bet my top pair-avg kicker and > everyone folded and I won a small pot again. > See my comments from hand number 1. > These two hands occurred in the same session and got me thinking that perhaps I > should have checked instead of betting in both instances. It seems that by > betting I could only win a small pot, but I could lose more than I could win if > someone held the trips and ck-called me. If I check, someone else may pickup > some kind of hand (either a draw or another paint hits and someone makes two > pair- an inferior two-pair to mine). If someone had the trips or an A-higher > kicker (unlikely b/c no preflop raise), I'm going to lose anyway, so I may as > well check it and allow someone to pickup a 2nd best hand that would warrant > calling to showdown. > > I bet on flop=I win small amt or I lose medium amt after the trips ck-call me > on flop and I get suspicious and then I shutdown and simply ck-call; or > I check on flop=I win medium size pot b/c some1 picks up 2nd best hand or I > lose medium size pot (same reasoning as before) > > thanks, > quesionguy Get greedy and get broke. As I said in an earlier thread, "If you leave the door open, don't be surprised who walks through it." Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: hand advice, Mark, 13. Jun 2003 12:12 | ||
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| > 1)I was in bb w/ A9s, someone open-limped from late position and the cutoff and > sb also limped so checked and got a freeplay. The flop came A33 rainbow, the sb > checked, I bet my top pair/weak kicker, and everyone folded and I won a small > pot. You have to bet the flop. By betting you have a chance to win the pot. If you check you gain nothing, you give free cards and the opportunity to be bluffed. Would you save a 1/2 bet by checking the flop, only to call a full bet on the turn. By betting you know where you stand. You will only be raised by a better hand, and if you are, you find out for the minimum amount of money. >I was 2 seats from the button, w/ ATo, a middle position player open-limped, > I limped, the cutoff and button folded, the sb limped and the bb checked. The > flop came A88 rainbow, everyone checked to me, I bet my top pair-avg kicker and > everyone folded and I won a small pot again. With this hand, much of the same applies. However, an argument can be made for raising with A10off in late position. With no early position players in the pot, the middle and late limpers could have all kinds of garbage. A raise may be in order to punish the limpers and drive out the blinds. After raising pre-flop, you can easily bet the flop, agian, you will only be raised by hands that can beat you. In either case, checking is very weak. You allow all sorts of hands to draw for free. Granted, there is not much to draw to on the flop, but the turn card may make someone a solid draw, which they will call with to see the river. Or someone may hit runner-runner for 2 pair. mark | ||
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| Re: hand advice, Scrubbie, 13. Jun 2003 14:48 | ||
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| Everyone couldn't be more right in this situation. You can't slow play an "A - Middle" unless you hit the stone cold nuts. Scrubbie | ||
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