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Server Time: 12/3/2008 12:03:31 PM PACIFIC |
 Critique this Stud-8 hand, Andrew Wells, 12. Jun 2003 11:20 | ||
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| Six players at my table out of twenty-five remaining, including the chip leader who is on my right. We are probably a level or two away from the final table, and three or four levels from the money. Antes are 100, playing 400-800. I'm in seat one with 1800 the second shortest stack, and have been at this table for about twenty minutes. Table characteristics have just gone from loose aggressive to loose passive. I have been anteing off a lot and bricking my low draws on fourth street from what used to be a decent 3800 stack which I moved to this table with. Here is the hand I think I butchered, all comments welcome. 3rd. street: [1] 1800 (7d4d) 6s [2] 4200 6h [3] 5400 8s [4] 2300 Qh [5] 1000 Jc [6] 12800 2c The chip leader brings it in for 200 and I call. The player on my left with the 6h raises it to 400, which the next player with the 8s calls cold. The two players with the high cards fold, and we both call the raise. 2200 pot on 4th. street: [1] 1300 (7d4d) 6s 5s [2] 3700 6h 8c [3] 4900 8s Ts [6] 12300 2c 7s I check to the player on my right who bets 400 and we all call. 3800 pot on 5th. street: [1] 900 (7d4d) 6s 5s 7c [2] 3300 6h 8c 9c [3] 4500 8s Ts 2s [4] 11900 2c 7s Qs I bet 800 and only the chip leader folds. 6200 pot on 6th. street: [1] 100 (7d4d) 6s 5s 7c Tc [2] 2500 6h 8c 9c Ac [3] 3700 8s Ts 2s 9h I go all-in for 100 which the player on my left completes to 800 and is called. 6500 pot 1400 side on 7th. street: [1] all-in (7d4d) 6s 5s 7c Tc (Kd) [2] 1700 6h 8c 9c Ac [3] 2900 8s Ts 2s 9h The player with the ace high bets 800 and is called. 6500 pot 3000 side showdown: [1] (7d4d) 6s 5s 7c Tc (Kd) [2] (2h5h) 6h 8c 9c Ac (Ad) [3] (Td9s) 8s Ts 2s 9h (8d) | ||
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| Re: Critique this Stud-8 hand, Schuster, 12. Jun 2003 11:45 | ||
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| In stud 8 and O8 tournaments, I generally play for high once the limits are large compared to my stack, assuming people are playing tight and trying to get in the money, keep their chip count high, etc. Playing low will get you pot committed on a low that might not even be there yet, as happened here. You couldn't really fold it once you caught good on fourth street, you've already put 1000 of your 1800 stack in. When you paired on 5th street, your draw looks good to everyone else, but since they will only have to pay 500 more, even if you have a made low, the pot is so large that it is probably worth it to try to knock you out. A bet is in order in a ring game situation to try fold them off draws that aren't there, but you're 100% committed if you make that bet. In the end, your choices are being left with 800 or 500 chips and trying to survive, or gambling and hoping to make your low, or maybe pick up two pair and hope they win high. I think your hand is looking good enough on 5th street to take the gamble, and with the antes so high, you can't really afford to fold it here. If I had chose to play this hand, I probably would have played it the same way. But, I really do like to avoid low draws late in the few tournaments I've played. Lee | ||
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| Re: Critique this Stud-8 hand, Andrew Wells, 12. Jun 2003 12:26 | ||
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| I agree with you about focusing on the high starting hands in the late stages of the tourney. This would also start to apply here as there were four short tables left, and it was starting to get less aggressive. The problem I see with this is my stack is too short to commit with a hand like pocket kings with a raise on third or fourth street. Even if I get it heads-up I'm only a slight favorite to scoop against one of the bigger stacks that will surely put me all-in. I think the straight draw with the rough low (given my chip position) is better here than a wired pair. | ||
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| Re: Critique this Stud-8 hand, 4 POKER, 12. Jun 2003 11:48 | ||
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| You're playing $400-800 with $1,800 in chips. You have the 2nd shortest stack. You have to figure that with that holding you must hit two perfect cards in a row to give yourself a good chance at either scooping the pot with a sraight 7 or taking half the pot with your low in a showdown at the river. If you do catch good on the turn(excluding an 8), then the hand will proably cost you 400 on the turn, leaving you with $1,000 left in chips.(the 400 on 3rd and the 400 on 4th street). The problem with a seven low draw is even though you caught a good card on the turn, with all those players involved, you're more than likely going to have to hit another perfect card on fifth street; one that would give you the straight seven. I'm saying this because if you simply just catch a meaningless low card, your hand will be very vulnerable now leaving you with a rough seven low. I guess after the turn, and seeing what everyone else had caught(which did not seem threatening on the low draws), you were committed to seeing the hand through. You were only faced with one hand that could have caught up to your hand on 5th street and that was the bring-ins deuce. The other low draws did not catch good(the six caught an 8 and the other player who limped in with the 8 door card could not have beaten you at all because he bricked with the ten.. Your decision to call the bet on third street was the one to think about. I don't realy play tournaments but I do play stud 8 alot and I pick my spots very carefully if and when I do decide to play for a seven low or seven high straight. I usually save those hands for when I'm up against two or more obvious high hands as it wouldn't matter as much if my low was not that strong. But against several other players that are going low, I'll wait for a more opportune time to play a 7. The main reason for that is you must for sure hit two perfect cards in a row and when up against several players who are drawing against you, you're probably going to have to hit even another perfect card just to re-enforce the strength of your hand and perhaps bring it down to a six low. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Critique this Stud-8 hand, Andrew Wells, 12. Jun 2003 12:08 | ||
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| I was now feeling the pressure from the antes, and the next level was only three minutes away. I didn't think I would get another reasonable starting hand before I got too short for a raise to have any effect. I had already gone through more than half the stack I had at the beginning of this table, so I thought it was worth taking a shot to see fourth street here. I gave a lot of consideration to checking and folding on fifth, which was where I thought I messed up. It didn't look like the player with the spade board already had the flush, and that draw already had four dead cards. I thought my bad seven would be enough if I caught, and all my threes were live. So I committed at this point. I should probably have realized that there were less low cards available than it might appear, as everyone in on fifth street could have started low. I think it's a tough hand to lay down on third street with my stack getting smaller, but that may have been the best choice. | ||
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| Re: Critique this Stud-8 hand, 4 POKER, 12. Jun 2003 12:29 | ||
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| Only you know what was the best coarse of action to take given the situation and considering how high the next level was going to be. If you felt that you made the right decision based on what you have been experiencing at the time, then don't second guess yourself. You did not make a catastrophic call on third street. Had you had a better chip count, you could have waited or chose to enter the pot with a high hand (one that already contained a pair) because a high hand can win the pot where a low draw still must hit twice to making a hand at all. but like you stated, you were extremely low on chips and you were probably just making a stand. better luck to you. Dave | ||
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| Re: Critique this Stud-8 hand, stdioh, 12. Jun 2003 11:57 | ||
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| To be totally candid, you had no business being in the hand at all. Your chance of making a high with those cards was very poor. Your chance of making a low was decent, but it would necessarilly be a bad low. You're drawing to the second best hand for half the pot. Now one you have your up/down draw and your low draw, you're pretty much married to the hand and it is too bad that you didn't hit something, but really you shouldn't have been there in the first place. Now when you have 4 cards to a low straight flush on fourth street and make your ace high flush and make your 7 low and still lose both sides of the pot, then you'll have something to cry about. | ||
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| Re: Critique this Stud-8 hand, Andrew Wells, 12. Jun 2003 12:18 | ||
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| What you are saying is that it was more likely I would get a better starting hand before the antes eat so much of my stack that even a scoop may not bring me back to 1800. I wonder what are the chances I will get even something playable before my stack is too short to make a difference if I don't see fourth street here. I should have mentioned that it was going to increase to 200 antes with a 400 low force in about three minutes, does this change your position? You could easily be right about not playing this hand from the get go, but I thought I was running out of opportunities. Stud-8 is not my best game, but I wanted to do something different from hold'em for a change of pace. | ||
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| Re: Critique this Stud-8 hand, stdioh, 12. Jun 2003 14:51 | ||
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| Fair enough. You've convinced me - you were in desperate need of more chips, so playing this hand the way you did was correct. | ||
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| Re: Critique this Stud-8 hand, Andrew Wells, 12. Jun 2003 19:22 | ||
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| Curious thing is, I suspect you are all right about not calling the bring-in. I'm not going to second guess myself for playing this one as 4P suggests. However since I'm going to make a stand with these cards, I think a raise on third street would have been the best option. The player on my left could now easily have made the full reraise. This should have been enough to knock out the player with the crappy T98 start, and possibly the chip leader with the low force. I'm basicly taking a shot at a weak low draw that maybe I can back into some kind of high hand with. So I have some extra protection in not having to make something good enough to grab half the pot in a four way contest. Of course if I knew the aggressive player had started with three hearts to a six low, I would have obviously mucked right away. By raising, I may also get checked to on fourth street and could certainly use a free card there if I pick up enough to draw to. I also may get paid off by an eight low if I make my seven and go all-in on sixth street, since I may get read for a big pocket pair with the initial raise. I may also be able to move a better high hand out of the pot if I catch an open pair quickly. So it seems to me like I played the hand too passively from the beginning. When it was finally checked to me on fifth street, my almost all-in bet doesn't help since it looks to everyone like I have a vulnerable made low. | ||
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| Re: Critique this Stud-8 hand, Mark, 12. Jun 2003 21:54 | ||
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| I agree with you here Andrew, I also don't think much of your starting hand, but if you are going to play it (or feel pressured into playing it) you should play it fast from the start. Your basically commited to the hand when you call the open raise, so why not try to eliminate some of the competition. If you felt pressured enough to call the open raise, would you have folded if you caught bad on 4th, leaving you even more desparate for a hand. As I see it, you were committing to the hand when you called the raise, so you should have re-raised to eliminate some competition. Mark | ||
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| Re: Critique this Stud-8 hand, Andrew Wells, 13. Jun 2003 08:29 | ||
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| Your idea of a backraise is also interesting. Actually I didn't cold call, but I did close the action for third street with the flat call of the raise on my left. Perhaps making the delayed reraise on third street, followed by a bet or raise on fourth street could have done the job here too. I know I played the hand too passively now, and that's how I butchered it. Overall, I think an immediate raise of the bring-in would have had the best effect. I blew this hand with the flat call, even to have mucked it was better than calling in retrospect. | ||
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| Re: Critique this Stud-8 hand, stdioh, 13. Jun 2003 09:53 | ||
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| Indeed, if you are going to play to a bad low and a draw to a high like that, putting on pressure to fold out other lows is pretty much essential. | ||
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