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Server Time: 10/11/2008 12:57:08 AM PACIFIC |
 How far do you take your pair?, Big_Slick, 11. Jun 2003 11:28 | ||
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| Of course, this question is highly situational and a lot depends on how many players are in the hand and your position. However... If I play pocket pairs (9's - 2's) usually I'll fold on the flop unless I hit trips or a small pair pops up. I was wondering what type of rules you all follow when playing small to medium pairs. How often do you put in a bet after the flop, when do you raise, etc. | ||
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| Re: How far do you take your pair?, LJH, 11. Jun 2003 13:48 | ||
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| BIG, I AM WITH YOU. IF NOTHING HELPS MY SMALL PAIR, I AM OUTTA THERE. LJH | ||
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| Re: How far do you take your pair?, Schuster, 11. Jun 2003 13:59 | ||
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| Sklansky suggests with a hand like this that you are likely to have the worst hand, but if your hand is the best then everyone will fold to a flop bet, then you should probably bet. I try to apply this, and will usually bet with no more than 3 other good players in the pot. In a fishy game, I will usually check/fold and wait for a better opportunity. Lee | ||
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| Re: How far do you take your pair?, 4 POKER, 12. Jun 2003 05:43 | ||
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| Slick, First off, you can't put 9-9 in the same category as 2-2. For the simple reason that most of the time, 2-2 is not even worth calling one bet regardless of your position. More often than not (and believe me, it's more often), pocket 2-2's have no value to them at all unless you flop a set; and drawing to hit a two outer everytime you do call with 2-2, is exactly what you will be doing...drawing to a 2 outer. If I'm in EP or MP with the real small pairs, I will not even commit my chips to the pot, it's not worth it. There could be raises behind me and those holdings do not warrant them to be played for multiple bets. Trust me, in the long run, the small pairs will have no redeeming value to them whatsoever. Now, if you're in late position and there is enough money in the pot for you to limp in with the small pairs than you occasionally can do that. But the small pairs must hit on the flop and if you don't flop a set you must muck the hand immediately. So for the most part, they're really not worth the call in the first place...not most of the time anyway because every time you do commit to playing these small pairs, you'll be drawing to hit a 2 outer; and regardless of the odds that you'd be getting, the reward will not be there enough times to show you a profit. If you're holding the higher medium pairs (6-6 thru 9-9) then often you can call with them and depending on your position, you might even be able to raise with them as well. But keep in mind, if you do raise with a medium pair (say in LP as a steal), if you get called, even if you go heads up, you must be able to have a strong read on your opponent so you'll be able to smell danger if and when he calls one of your bets. Every hand is independant from the next, so if you're getting the proper odds with your hand and you have strong reading abilities, then you should be able to play those types of hands where they won't cost you too much. But, IMHO, from past experience, if you threw away the small pairs like 2-2 thru 5-5, you wouldn't be giving up much at all...in fact over time you'd be saving money 'cause these holdings are real dogs most of the time. The ol' no set, no bet thinking is correct however, small pair, no CALL is even better. You will show a bigger profit if you choose to play stronger holdings. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: How far do you take your pair?, mongi, 12. Jun 2003 20:50 | ||
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| I think that if your are in late position and you are playing against several loose players who will call you to the river, thus paying you off when you hit your set you should raise for value. However, if I believe somebody behind me might reraise then Its better to just call. If the game is passive you might even get to see the turn for free when they check to you. I would be more inclined to do this with 66 and up. You may even be able to outplay certain certain players who just assume your betting a hand like big pair or AK, you need to really have a good read on your players to do this so be carefull. If the game is very loose and very passive I will play any pair from any position. What do you guys think about Phil Helmuths strategy to raise and reraise with small pairs before the flop to isolate certain players? I think that this is a very high variance type of play although it would definately give you a wild image. I don't like it. | ||
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| Re: How far do you take your pair?, 4 POKER, 13. Jun 2003 03:35 | ||
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| Hi Mongi, To answer some of your Q's. You had asked what we thought of Phil Helmuth's strategy: Raising and reraising with any pair to isolate certain players. Then you stated that this type of play would definitely give you a wild image. First off, I'm not sure if he's talking about his tournament play or his ring game play. He has proven himself to be quite a successful tournament player however, playing in ring games(which I do believe you are talking about here),if you are willing to raise and reraise with ANY pair regardless of your position, not only would this give you a wild image, you will definitely lose alot of money over the coarse of time. Those bets should be saved for better starting hands because you'll be more able to win the hand by having the ability to bet, raise and/or reraise without having to flop a set. (Because basically, everytime you do play a small pair, most of the time you WILL have to flop a set) It's bad poker to reraise with very small pairs on a regular basis. Those hands are not money makers and even if you were able to isolate just one other opponent, who's to say that you're not up against a much bigger hand? I think that anyone who is willing to raise and reraise an entire field with those holdings will be costing themselves a ton of money. I'm not really sure where you read that one, but I'll tell you this; Phil H is not as strong of a player in the ring games as he is in his NL hold-em tournament play. I don't mean to talk negative about him but he has been known to dust off quite a bit of money in the ring games in Vegas and Atlantic City. Maybe he feels that bcause he is Phil Helmuth, that his name alone would warrant such a play because others may fear him now. Well the other people who play against Phil happen to be world class players in those ring games and in the long run, if he chose to play his pairs that way, he'd be doing nothing more than adding to these guys paychecks. And yes, without a doubt this type of play would give you a "wild image", but anytime you play bad poker your image is going to be perceived as "wild"(extremely loose); and why commit to such a thing on a regular basis? Let me ask you this question;(forget about Phil's strategies for a moment), are you willing to give yourself that type of image? Do you think that type of play would make you more money in the long run? Are you willing to 3 bet pocket deuces every single time? (just something to think about from your perspective). I think those so-called strategies are nothing more than playing bad cards and playing them poorly as well. Now...you said that you would play any pair from any position in a loose and passive game. IMHO. regardless of the texture of the game, if you're willing to play 2-2, 3-3, 4-4, 5-5 from an UTG or EP, you will probably be costing yourself money that is not needed to be put into the pot. There will always be a time where someone is going to raise preflop(even in those passive type games). and playing real small pairs in poor position is not smart poker, sorry. You need to enter a pot with much stronger holdings in EP and MP. Then if you're in a good position to limp in occasionally with the smaller pairs, you will at least be aware as to how many other opponents have limped in as well(pot odds) and you won't be faced with having to commit more chips then need be with these hands. I think you may need to tighten up a little bit more and enter pots based on your holding and your position combined. If you are a solid player and are perceived as such, then occasionally you could play a small pair aggresively- you'll just be mixing up your game a little bit and that will cause your opponents to make more mistakes against you for you will have made it harder for them to get the proper "read" on you and they will be more inclined to pay you off the next time when you really do have a strong hand. If you want to make a good profit when playing in ring games, you should be playing really strong hands up front, entering a pot with good pot odds, mix your game up a little bit(but don't go overboard) and by NOT throwing good money after bad. Give yourself the best opportunity at all times and don't just play any pair from any position and I think you'll have far greater results. (remember, if you chose to play solid poker and play hands that prove to show you good results on average, then you will be able to be more aggressive with those hands, and that will also add to your earn). Hold-em is a game that should be played with aggressive style play, and you can achieve that style by chosing to play superior holdongs while also still allowing yourself to enter pots from a later position with the smaller pairs. I think that is a better approach to the game. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: How far do you take your pair?, shorn, 13. Jun 2003 07:40 | ||
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| I agree with 4POKER on this one. 22-55 or so is just not worth it to play in EP or early MP unless the game is absolutely perfect (rarely a preflop raise and at least 5 players taking the flop...BTW, if you find this game PLEASE give me a call). I used to think the same as you mongi about pairs until I started tracking my play on Poker Tracker. It is startling the amount of $$ that you can lose with small pairs if played incorrectly. I think the best strategy most of the time is to fold and wait for a better hand (unless you are in LP or the blinds and can play very cheaply with correct odds). An easy exercise to convince yourself of this is to play for a full week with each strategy and track how those hands hold up, comparing the amount of $$ won/lost. Its not the best sample, but should give you an indication. | ||
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| Re: How far do you take your pair?, Schuster, 13. Jun 2003 11:51 | ||
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| > I agree with 4POKER on this one. 22-55 or so is just not worth it to play in EP or early MP > unless the game is absolutely perfect (rarely a preflop raise and at least 5 players taking the > flop...BTW, if you find this game PLEASE give me a call). Heh... the 1/2 and sometimes 2/4 on pacific fits this criteria. Just go look at the percentage seeing the flop sometime on these games, you'll be mighty surprised. Lee | ||
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| Re: How far do you take your pair?, 4 POKER, 13. Jun 2003 12:00 | ||
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| on 13. Jun 2003 11:51 Schuster wrote: > > I agree with 4POKER on this one. 22-55 or so is just not worth it to play in EP or early MP > > unless the game is absolutely perfect (rarely a preflop raise and at least 5 players taking the > > > flop...BTW, if you find this game PLEASE give me a call). > > Heh... the 1/2 and sometimes 2/4 on pacific fits this criteria. Just go look at the percentage > seeing the flop sometime on these games, you'll be mighty surprised. > > Lee Hey Lee, If you do play in such a game and feel that it is okay to play any pair from any position(because that is what the complete post was about), then do so, but do me a favor and keep track of those small pairs that you play in EP and let me know if they really do prove themselves to be moneymakers over a substantial period of time. 4 POKER | ||
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