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Server Time: 11/20/2009 4:33:12 PM PACIFIC |
 Aggressive Semi Bluffing, mroban, 10. Jun 2003 13:11 | ||
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| There is one weakness I have that sometimes makes me alot of money but will cost me alot as well. I guess my greatest strength is also my greatest weakness - playing tight and very aggressive, but too aggressive when my hand doesn't hit. For example, I have AKos in early position and I raise. I get 3 limpers including the BB. The flop comes down Q-x-x rainbow. I bet and get three callers. This is a problem because now I know two things: 1) the callers are not confident enough in their hands to bet their hands (and they usually just call raises anyway); 2) I have a back door straight possibility and 6 other cards to make best hand. On the turn, another blank or even a low pair. Question, if the BB checks should I bet it out? If the BB bets, I am folding. But again, if I know they will check, is it sound strategy to keep betting? Or should I just check and hope I get to see the river for free? With three callers, someone probably has QQ or a middle or low pair. So I am beat. I have lost a lot of money on these hands where I play aggressively, isolate one caller on the river who calls my river bet when I miss my card again. I think I can save alot of money by trying to get the free card on the turn, but if I check, it allows a bluff bet and then I will probably have to fold my hand. I have won a bunch of pots betting aggressively until the end (usually forcing weak pairs to fold) but have lost a fortune as well from callers that will want to call the pot and know that I will bluff. I am thinking I am best served if I miss the flop to check and fold and save the bets. Perhaps use this approach 20% of the time so I don't become predictable. Obviously the more outs I have and the less chance the board cards have of making flushes and straight draws, the more likely it is that I should continue the bluff. Thoughts? | ||
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| Re: Aggressive Semi Bluffing, Big_Slick, 10. Jun 2003 14:12 | ||
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| I think a lot of players go full throttle when they land A-A, K-K or A-K. They put their blinders on, disregard the flop and fire in bets and raises no matter what the board reads. I know that I use to do this a lot. I'm learning to change speeds. Just because I re-raised before a flop doesn't mean I can't fold immediately after the flop if I don't like what I'm seeing. Marriage is a bad thing in poker. You blow all your money on a pair of sexy aces only to loose everything. Then a few hands later, your real money maker turns out to be 5-8o in the BB. Go figure. | ||
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| Re: Aggressive Semi Bluffing, mroban, 10. Jun 2003 15:12 | ||
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| so true Slick. Here is a hand I played last night, would love to use an example: I am the Dealer at Hollywood Park Casino $2-4 game. Very loose game with lots of passive calling. Most hands I am the only one folding before the flop. Everyone wants in on the action but few raises preflop, so the odds are pretty good on some weaker hands. Also, at HP Casino, the dealer adds another small blind (as the dealer). So there is the SB, BB and the dealer blind. It is toward the end of my night (I was getting tired) and I decided to play Kc-9c (a hand I normally might not play except under these circumstances). The idea was to look for a good flop, if not there, muck the hand. So I limp for 1/2 a bet, the SB limps for his 1/2 bet and the BB bets it out! The UTG then raises and the second limper re-raises so its 3 more bets to me. I probably should have folded at that point (which is what my instinct was) but these guys were playing so loose and I read the second re-raise as a "we might as well cap this thing raise". So I called the 3 extra bets (okay, that was a huge mistake). The flop comes down 9s-6c-5d. So I flopped high pair with a good kicker and a backdoor flush draw. And I have good position. Everyone checks around to me (understandable for this kind of flop) so I raise to find out where I am at. SB folds, BB calls (I now put him on a weak flush draw), UTG raises, 2nd limper calls, so now its one more bet to me with a huge pot. Obviously I am now going to call. On the river was a 7s. Flush draw is gone for me. The BB could now have made a 4 flush if he was holding spades, and I put the UTG now on a big pair. But the UTG checks his hand, 2nd limper checks. Again, I felt with a huge 4way pot and high pair with high kicker, I was not going to fold, so again I bet out. The BB goes all in (he had a short stack) and the UTG re-raises (check raise tells me what I need to know - I am beat) and the 2nd limper reluctantly folds his hand (probably had a gutshot straight that he abandoned or a lower pair). I know he should fold at this point, but I call one more big bet. The river is another 6 (not a spade). With the BB all in, I grab my chips as though I am going to bet and the UTG checks to me, I check and he says "straight is good". I turn over my pair of 99 and he shows my pocket QQ (and gathers in a monster pot). There were three factors here that I ignored: 1. I was tired and wasn't making good decisions (which was why I was leaving the game anyway after that hand); but 2. the pot was huge and I had (at least after the flop 3 Ks to make best hand with, and two nines for 6 outs, plus the backdoor flush. I could have checked on the turn but feared giving a free card to the 2nd limper who was clearly on a draw. He folded, so I got myself heads up (which was partly my goal). I knew the BB would go all in and I would have a side pot heads up. So I managed to accomplish both of those things. In that context, was I correct to raise? I did read the UTG for an overpair, but felt there was a chance (however small), that I could represent the straight and cause him to fold (not likely with a pot that big!). This is the kind of play that I have lost tons of money with. While it may be technically the right play, it just hasn't been profitable for me. Obviously with a small pot the decision is easy. I could have saved myself alot of money by just not playing K-9s but once the pot got going three-way the odds were there to play. Thoughts? | ||
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| Re: Aggressive Semi Bluffing, Big_Slick, 10. Jun 2003 21:38 | ||
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| If I had decided to play K-9, I would have folded after all of the pre-flop raising. I wouldn't have put in the 3 extra bets. Personally, I get very excited when I fold a hand and then see that the flop missed. It's like making money. Of course, when I don't play a hand and the flop hits, I'm pissed as hell. More often than not though, I'm saving bets. Anyhow... you did put up the 3 bets and saw the flop. You did make top pair. However, I don't think you can expect your nines to hold up in this situation. With all the raising, you've got to put one of these bozos on a high pocket pair. Lets add a twist... what if the bozo has a pair of Kings? A king flops on the turn and you're getting excited thinking you have 2 pair. Meanwhile, Bozo is getting ready to drop the hammer with his trip Kings. After the flop I think you needed to check and get a free card. A bet in my opinion isn't going to really reveal a whole lot. Any signs that you're looking for were given to you loud and clear with all the raising pre-flop. It's a little late now for "feelers". Plus, with 3 other people left in the pot, you're not going to get them all to fold with a raise. The only advantage I see to betting here would be to get money into the pot if you had a drawing hand like 4 to the flush or an O/E straight. After you get the free card, then you can evailuate where your hand stands. Maybe you'd get lucky and pick up another 9. Maybe a king would come. But if a crap card falls, you need to check or fold and get out as cheaply as you can. You took your shot and came up short. Save your chips for a hand you are really excited about. That hand could be right around the corner. Just my thoughts... If you don't agree with them, hopefully they made you think a little. "Never Pet A Burning Dog" | ||
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| Re: Aggressive Semi Bluffing, mroban, 11. Jun 2003 01:26 | ||
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| I totally agree Big. The only reason (I think) I called the 3 bets was that it was my "last hand". Never a good reason, of course. I wonder how much money has been lost on that thought? No doubt I made a very expensive mistake. | ||
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| Re: Aggressive Semi Bluffing, Andrew Wells, 10. Jun 2003 14:55 | ||
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| I look at it the other way around. The more likely a board has helped drawing hands, the further I will continue to push those overcards. If there's no likely draw available this just increases the possibility that someone has at least a pair instead. More important is to be against the type of players who will release a weak hand on the turn those times when you continue to play overcards fast. Calling stations aren't going see me follow through with a bet on the turn, I'll just try to see the river for no big bet if the rest of the field is compliant. | ||
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| Re: Aggressive Semi Bluffing, MozMan, 10. Jun 2003 15:23 | ||
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| While I will admit that one of my continuing faults is that I tend to get too attached to these hands, I am getting a little better. In addition, I think this has a lot to do with the nature of the table, and how well you are reading the opponents. For example, I played 3-6 B&M last night... soon after sitting down (within the first 5 or 6 hands) I was dealt AA in MP on a kill pot. There was a lot of pre-flop raising, and four of us payed $48 to see the flop. The killer was to my left. On a flop that was all undercards and slightly coordinated for a str8, I bet out; the killer and I got into a raise war and capped again; but we knocked out the other two by the time th cap came along. Long story short: there was a lot of betting and raising before showdown, and she had me beat the whole way. I never got any help from the board. The point is, I made three major errors in this hand: 1- I got too attached to my aces in a big pot situation 2- I did not give myself enough time to read the killer (I wasn't at the table long enough to get involved in this). I really thought she was a big fish. I pegged her as the emotional type who would be pissed that I raised her kill blind and was despirately trying to defend her kill pot. Fact is, she knew she had me and knew she needed to present herself that way to keep me betting. 3- I jumped in and started to try to play hard and agressive before I settled into the session, and was making bad decisions because I really wasn't in the game yet. Three hours later, I aggressively semi-bluffed a pair of dueces against a guy that I had a chance to read a little first. I correctly placed him on a mediocre second pair (6s) and got him to fold to a bet on the turn, in a hand I should probably have lost. This won't always work, but you really need to read the table to know when it will. Anyway, I don't know if my little story makes any sense, I guess my point is there is a time and a place for this kind of strategy. If you use it when you should, it will be profitable for you. -Moz "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli." | ||
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