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Server Time: 9/5/2008 5:10:01 PM PACIFIC |
 Flopping a set into a nasty board, SendMoney, 9. Jun 2003 22:55 | ||
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| Let's say you're holding QsQh and the flop comes Qd10d7d or say you're holding 10s10c and the flop comes 10hJdQc. Most people would probably say that you should bet and raise or re-raise the flop, since you don't want to give a free flush card to someone holding 1 diamond in the 1st example, or a free straight card to someone holding an A, K, or 9 in the second example. I say it's a tough call. In the first example you could be up against a made flush already, and in the second example you could be up against AK, K9, or 89 for the made straight. Personally I think you'll be getting good enough implied odds if you hit your full house if you just check the flop, and if it's checked around and the turn card is a blank then you can more safely assume you're in the lead and bet more aggresively. The point is there is a possibility that you're getting a free card as much as you are giving one, and since you could still make a full house on the river even if the turn card is scary you're getting good implied possibilities to check/raise, re-raise, cap it on the river with the sure(r) thing. | ||
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| Re: Flopping a set into a nasty board, PairTheBoard, 10. Jun 2003 00:03 | ||
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| I think you've got to bet it. At least most of the time. In a loose passive game you may get more than one caller with a high diamond plus calls from top pair, yet you have a big 62% chance that no diamond will come on the turn or the river. The odds on such bets are just too juicy to pass up. Yes, someone may already have the flush, but most of the time they don't. When they do you can slow down and still have outs. The raise is a little trickier. Many players will bluff or semi bluff at a flop like that, so against them your raise is good, plus players with one high diamond are still likely to call for the draw. Of course, if the better is someone who rarely bluffs you have to figure he's got it and just call for your own draw to PAIRTHEBOARD! lol My experience is that flops like that are not as scary as they look and you can play at them with a lot less than your powerful set. I think what will really suprise you is how often there will be more than one opponent left on the river, the forth diamond comes, and if you have the guts to make the crying call discover that nobody had a diamond! LOL | ||
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| Re: Flopping a set into a nasty board, Roy Cooke, 10. Jun 2003 02:08 | ||
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| Betting is a no brainer.....When you check and lose the pot to a hand which may have folded to a bet you have committed a grievous error...Don't focus on saving bets when your hand is vulnerable and the pot is of reasonable size! The only time you should check is if the pot is VERY small (even them it is suspect), you KNOW you are beat or you are pretty sure you can checkraise. Roy Cooke on 9. Jun 2003 22:55 SendMoney wrote: > Let's say you're holding QsQh and the flop comes Qd10d7d or say you're holding > 10s10c and the flop comes 10hJdQc. Most people would probably say that you > should bet and raise or re-raise the flop, since you don't want to give a free > flush card to someone holding 1 diamond in the 1st example, or a free straight > card to someone holding an A, K, or 9 in the second example. > > I say it's a tough call. In the first example you could be up against a made > flush already, and in the second example you could be up against AK, K9, or 89 > for the made straight. Personally I think you'll be getting good enough implied > odds if you hit your full house if you just check the flop, and if it's checked > around and the turn card is a blank then you can more safely assume you're in > the lead and bet more aggresively. > > The point is there is a possibility that you're getting a free card as much as > you are giving one, and since you could still make a full house on the river > even if the turn card is scary you're getting good implied possibilities to > check/raise, re-raise, cap it on the river with the sure(r) thing. | ||
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| Re: Flopping a set into a nasty board, shorn, 10. Jun 2003 05:26 | ||
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| I agree with Roy for the most part. You must bet to get people out of the pot or to at least make them pay to draw. However, if there are 7 or 8 players in with you, then your bet is actually more of a value bet when you hit, because with that many players, you are drawing to the full house and are most likely even money against thew str8's and flushes. You can't look at flops and always assume that there are "monsters under the bed" with someone holding the nuts against you. You MUST bet to make people pay on the off chance that you are in the lead. If someone has the str8 or flush, you will find out on the turn. And then, you still have outs to make your FH out quads. | ||
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| Re: Flopping a set into a nasty board, stdioh, 10. Jun 2003 12:15 | ||
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| Don't neglect the fact that with top set you have a great redraw, so even if you are beat your bets don't just evapourate. | ||
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| Re: Flopping a set into a nasty board, jdsalinger, 10. Jun 2003 13:44 | ||
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| I agree it kind of goes along the lines of what brunson said in supersystem. "I dare anyone to get away from a flopped set". And of course it varies whether or not is NL or Limit. Say you got 10's and the flop comes QJ10 with 2 suiits and there was a preflop raise. Now you are a 2 to1 shot a make a full house or better but considering that you could be up against KQ,QJ, or AK I'd proceed cautiously as even a pair up of Q or J may hurt you. if you flop top or middle set it is a completely different story. Also if there are more than 2 people in drawing or even with an obvious straight and/or flush I don't mind pumping it top or middle set because I've got the best of it. Now heads it varies and you just play the guy but of course if you bet/raise the turn you are basically commited. If you don't bet the turn then you are less commited and can release you bottom set. | ||
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| Re: Flopping a set into a nasty board, LJH, 10. Jun 2003 06:16 | ||
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| DEAR SEND, I THINK YOU SHOULD DO MORE READING ON THIS TYPE OF HAND. YOU MUST RAISE TO MAKE THOSE DRAWING TO FLUSHES AND STRAIGHTS PAY THE PRICE. REMEMBER YOU ARE PLAYING FOR THE LONG TERM NOT JUST THAT ONE HAND. LJH | ||
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| Re: Flopping a set into a nasty board, stdioh, 10. Jun 2003 12:16 | ||
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| Ow, my ears. | ||
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| Re: Flopping a set into a nasty board, Mark, 10. Jun 2003 08:18 | ||
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| You must bet b/c 1. you don't want to give free cards (especially to hands that would fold) 2. by being the aggressor, you are representing something, and may get a made baby flush or str8 to fold. 3. You get a much better idea of what your opponents have. Raising I would only raise in this situation, if it makes most of my opponents look at 2 bets cold. ie. the bettor is on my immediate right. If the bettor is in the SB and everyone calls to be on the button, a bet probably won't push anyone out, so i may just flat call ( this also depends on the texture of the game and my opponents) mark | ||
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| Re: Flopping a set into a nasty board, noiseboy, 10. Jun 2003 09:10 | ||
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| Well, you are going to make a full house more than a third of the time, so as long as you have 2 or more opponents you should be betting and raising for 2 different reasons. If you have the best hand, you are betting so that you don't give anyone a free chance to beat your set, for instance somebody with a lone A of diamonds. However, even if you don't have the best hand, you certainly have the best draw, and as long as you have enough opponents, you should be a money favorite to the hand. | ||
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| Re: Flopping a set into a nasty board, noiseboy, 10. Jun 2003 09:19 | ||
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| Also, I should add that the fewer opponents there are, the less likely you will be up against a big made hand, in which case you are value betting your set, and making people pay to draw, as by the other posters above. The thing to keep in mind is that even if you are against str8s and flushes already made, as long as the pot is multi-way, you WANT money going into the pot, as much as possible. | ||
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| Re: Flopping a set into a nasty board, stdioh, 10. Jun 2003 12:14 | ||
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| You want to bet your hand here hard. The reason is that you have value to draw as well. Lets put it this way. Lets say you're on QQ and flop QT7 suited. Now you have the nut nonflush and a 1/3 chance of improving to the lock tight. Now lets say that nobody has a flush yet, you want to bet hard and make them pay to draw - good play. Lets say instead that somebody has a made flush, then they will lose if the board pairs. If you are not heads up, then you want to bet for value, roping as many people in to pay as many bets as possible in the event that you tighten up. There are few things better than the board pairing on the turn and flushing on the river ... unless the river is an ace of a king to make somebody a bigger tight. Basically, if you are heads up, you don't want to keep pushing the betting, but if there are 3 or more of you in the pot then jam it. You'll fill up 1/3 of the time and when you do you should have decent implied odds. | ||
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