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Server Time: 9/5/2008 5:17:50 PM PACIFIC |
 JJ limp in or stay away from them and your profits will be better, jdsalinger, 9. Jun 2003 18:05 | ||
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| well this is online NL games and tourneys using poker tracker on the sites that it works with. Limped in the past month, if there is any raise before me except for a complete fish or 2 that will call large I won't proceed to call a raise. Saved myself a bunch of money. JJ is far worse in limit hold'em but I have no stats with it. Will post stats on it later after dinner. Anyone else have stats for JJ? | ||
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| Re: JJ limp in or stay away from them and your profits will be better, psuasskicker, 9. Jun 2003 19:56 | ||
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| Not sure of the exact number, but I want to say it's something like a 60+% chance that the flop has an A, K, or Q somewhere in it? Could be a good chunk more than that, I'm not really sure. In a NL tourney, Jacks are a hand I'm moving all in on if there's no callers/raisers, and folding if anyone is in front of me unless I know I can limp. I actually like the hand better in limit poker because you can occassionally get enough limpers where you look to flop a set. Jacks to me are a hand that you either need to be heads up in the hopes that it holds up, or have a lot of players on the flop and look for your set. If I can't get one or the other, I don't play them. Three people coming preflop for a raise, I'm out if I'm not a blind (if there's three in for a raise and I'm BB with one bet to call, I'll probably look to hit that set). Five limping and I'll limp with them. Everyone folds and I'll raise to isolate or steal the blinds. I hate pocket Tens and Jacks, and generally dislike Queens as it's still better than 40% that an Ace or King hits on the flop. Queens I play, but Tens and Jacks I shy away from a lot. - C - | ||
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| Re: JJ limp in or stay away from them and your profits will be better, jdsalinger, 9. Jun 2003 20:22 | ||
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| yeah it's a hand that you can't really pump money in like KK or AA. Even if it comes Qxx mostly like you have the best hand but you can't pump it because someone may have a Q and you almost have to let the straight draws, flush draws, middle pairs etc draw cheaply. It's a sucker hand unless it is really late in a tourney and the antes and blinds are really large. But I'd like to hear other's opinions on it. Heck even Doyle Brunson classified QQ completely in a class of it's own from AA,KK in super system so JJ must me far worst. Smaller pairs are easier to get away from and of course today I have JJ with a 10,9,6 flop with 2 suits. Flopped an overpair on a very loose table. Now I either bet a large amount or play real conservative. I chose conservative and sure enough I was up against 10,9 top 2 pair, 69 low 2 pair and JQ. Luckily it didn't flop 10,9,7 or I may have been more aggressive and lost a good amount | ||
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| Re: JJ limp in or stay away from them and your profits will be better, shorn, 10. Jun 2003 05:17 | ||
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| Roughly 48% to see an Ace or King on the flop with QQ in your hand, so it is closer to 72% to see an A, K, or Q when you hold JJ. As others have posted, unless you know you can limp and have more than 4 callers or limit the field with a raise (to 1 or 2 opponents), this hand should be mucked in limit hold'em. NL is a different story as you can seriously influence the field by the size of a pre-flop raise, but still dangerous to lead with it in EP or even early MP. I think it was Greg Dinkin who wrote the article about playing the hand as 88...good advice and will most likely save $$ long run. | ||
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| Re: JJ limp in or stay away from them and your profits will be better, SendMoney, 9. Jun 2003 22:36 | ||
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| JJ can be a good hand when handled properly. In a NL tourney it's a good enough hand for a desperation all-in if you're short stacked (so is any pocket pair), and it's a good hand if you're big stacked and want to use it to bully the short stacks before the flop. It can get you in big trouble however when you're getting near the money and someone makes a big raise before or after you, JJ will get you in big trouble when you don't have to play, but you think it's much stronger than it really is. In a limit game a writer in Card Player magazine said that JJ is one of the most commonly misplayed Hold Em hands along with AJ. The author basically said that you'd be well served to play JJ the same as you would 88, that is it's not a power hand without a set, and even if it flops over the board you might be up against someone who limps with AA KK or QQ, you could be up against a smaller pocket pair that hit a set, or up against two pair. What's more if the flop comes 10 high or lower then hands like AK, AQ, and KQ might hang around to spike an overcard if no one raised pre-flop. If you limp in with JJ and you DO hit your set then you'll probably get enough extra bets after the flop to justify your not raising it pre-flop. While this is true with any pocket pair you're much less likely to suffer the tragic set over set problem which can occur when you hit a small set with cards like 22 thru 66. Especially in low limit hold em games a lot of people play any ace, any king, and almost any queen or any suited queen. The odds of an ace, king, or queen coming on the flop are close to even money, so why raise JJ if there is a 50% chance that you'll be beat on the flop? With only 2 outs to help you most of the time and a low likely hood that you'll shake someone off top pair, bad kicker or not, this is a money losing proposition. A raise with JJ from early position might shake out some weak aces, kings, or queens that could beat you, but it won't shake out the hands that will dominate you most of the time...and if that overcard does hit you'll have to wonder if he has it or not, it's a pretty weak play to call all the way to the river hoping someone is bluffing with 2nd pair. | ||
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| Re: JJ limp in or stay away from them and your profits will be better, noiseboy, 10. Jun 2003 09:23 | ||
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| I actually like JJ's and TT's, even 99's, but you have to look at them differently in a loose game as opposed to a tight game. In a loose game, I just treat them a lot like a small pair. I know that if I hit a set, I can bring down a huge pot, but a lot of the times, one or more overcards will hit and I will have to bail. In a tight game, I play them aggressive and try to get some people out. If I can get it down to one or two opponents, I have a good chance of holding up. | ||
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| Re: JJ limp in or stay away from them and your profits will be better, Snorbolus, 10. Jun 2003 10:40 | ||
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| I kind of like JJ in limit hold'em. I almost always raise with Jacks if I am going to play at all (which is usually). I think of this as a raise for value rather than an attempt to limit the field. In 10 handed showdown simulations JJ is the 5th best hand in hold'em. However, if I can limit the field to just me and one or two others that is fine too. Hell, if I can steal the blinds I am happy. The only hands that dominate JJ are: AA, KK and QQ, if you flop either an overpair or a set then you are very likely to have the best hand on the flop (and an excellent chance of winning at showdown). If you only raise pre-flop with AA, AKs, KK and QQ then you are giving up huge amounts of profit and lots of information too. It is true that you will often have to fold JJ on the flop, but that is a terrible reason not to raise with it. You don't raise because you are sure to win the hand. You raise because the times that you do win will more than make up for those that you don't. Another reason to raise JJ before the flop is that, in addition to getting more money into the pot when you have the probable best hand, your chance of winning will increase with every player who you can drive out. If somebody is sitting behind you with AA then you are screwed of course; but it is much more likely that they have some random cheese that they might be willing to play for just one bet and that could make 2 pair or some weird straight or flush. Unless you have reason to believe you are up against a better hand I say raise your Jacks. Yes they will often loose but they will win much more than the fair share. Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: JJ limp in or stay away from them and your profits will be better, stdioh, 10. Jun 2003 12:04 | ||
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| I like to raise my JJ because I want to fold people off of Ax and Kx - at the games I play there are a lot of jokers who will limp in middle position with K7, but will not cold call with it. Thus it allows my jacks a chance at life when an A, K, or Q falls on the flop. That said, there is a lot of skill in knowing when to get away from your jacks here too. | ||
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| Re: JJ limp in or stay away from them and your profits will be better, Don Quixote, 10. Jun 2003 12:34 | ||
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| Don't know if my stats for JJ at $.50/1. at Paradise, Party/Empire will help or not, but this is what I have: Started w/JJ 90 times and won money 48 % of the time. Showed a decent net profit. I cannot break down how I played them w/o digging thru all the hands in a time-consuming search. I might be more motivated if I were playing higher limits, but I am satisfied with my results. Hope this helps. Don Quixote on 9. Jun 2003 18:05 jdsalinger wrote: > well this is online NL games and tourneys using poker tracker on the sites that > it works with. Limped in the past month, if there is any raise before me except > for a complete fish or 2 that will call large I won't proceed to call a raise. > Saved myself a bunch of money. JJ is far worse in limit hold'em but I have no > stats with it. Will post stats on it later after dinner. Anyone else have > stats for JJ? | ||
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| Re: JJ limp in or stay away from them and your profits will be better, PairTheBoard, 10. Jun 2003 13:17 | ||
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| I think JJ is the perfect example of the kind of hand you should mix up your play with, sometimes just calling and sometimes raising. You have to think about not only how this hand plays but how your play on this hand sets up action on other hands. | ||
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| Re: JJ limp in or stay away from them and your profits will be better, DJ712, 11. Jun 2003 02:17 | ||
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| No stats, but Andy Glazer wrote about JJ in CardPlayer this month. He said treat it like 8-8 and you'll do better than treating it like QQ. Sounds like you're doing the same thing. I limp with JJ all the time. I treat it like 77, 88, 99, 10 10. No set, no bet. | ||
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