|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 2/13/2012 4:30:48 AM PACIFIC |
 How would you play these situations?, Big_Slick, 9. Jun 2003 11:11 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Situation One Let's say that you have a starting hand of 20 (any combination of 10-A) and the board flops a bunch of low trash. As an example, I'll choose 3-5-8 rainbow. There are 2 other people in the hand with you and you're on the button. The first player bets and the second player folds. Is this a definite fold situation for you? Is it stupid to bet hoping to catch a high card? I always fold in these situations but was wondering if this is the correct play. Since there isn't hardly any money in the pot, I don't see the advantage betting here. But lets switch position. If you are the first or second person to act, do you bet? Situation Two Same situation except you hold A-x suited. You haven't paired any of the cards but you flopped the nut flush draw. With one other person in the pot, do you fold or do you bet hoping to hit the flush? Again, I would fold this hand because the pot odds do not warrant a play. However, you do hold an ace. And if an ace flops, it might be good enough to take the pot. Again, what if you are the first to act with say only one opponent? I might be inclined to bet here. What are your thoughts? | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would you play these situations?, Risky Business, 9. Jun 2003 11:17 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Fold the 20, call the flush draw (raise would scare next to act) Strictly personal opinion, statistics may not hold up here. on 9. Jun 2003 11:11 Big_Slick wrote: > Situation One > Let's say that you have a starting hand of 20 (any combination of 10-A) and the > board flops a bunch of low trash. As an example, I'll choose 3-5-8 rainbow. > > There are 2 other people in the hand with you and you're on the button. The > first player bets and the second player folds. Is this a definite fold situation > for you? Is it stupid to bet hoping to catch a high card? > > I always fold in these situations but was wondering if this is the correct > play. Since there isn't hardly any money in the pot, I don't see the advantage > betting here. > > But lets switch position. If you are the first or second person to act, do you > bet? > > Situation Two > Same situation except you hold A-x suited. You haven't paired any of the cards > but you flopped the nut flush draw. With one other person in the pot, do you > fold or do you bet hoping to hit the flush? > > Again, I would fold this hand because the pot odds do not warrant a play. > However, you do hold an ace. And if an ace flops, it might be good enough to > take the pot. > > Again, what if you are the first to act with say only one opponent? I might be > inclined to bet here. > > What are your thoughts? > > > > > | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would you play these situations?, Dr_Monkey, 9. Jun 2003 11:25 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Situation One: It depends alot on the game (live or tourney) and the bettor. Is loose or tight? Does he have a big stack? Is it early or late in the tourney? If my starting hand had an Ace I would consider calling if I think he was trying to steal the pot. I might even consider raising. If he calls, he may check to the river. If I was first to act and had an Ace, I usually bet. If nothing else it folds weak players. If the remaining two people are maniacs, I would check since they will probably call to the river anyways. Situation Two Most likely call. First to make the pot worth more and maybe fold some people. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would you play these situations?, Easy E, 9. Jun 2003 12:01 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 9. Jun 2003 11:11 Big_Slick wrote: > Situation One > Let's say that you have a starting hand of 20 (any combination of 10-A) and the > board flops a bunch of low trash. As an example, I'll choose 3-5-8 rainbow. > > There are 2 other people in the hand with you and you're on the button. The > first player bets and the second player folds. Is this a definite fold situation > for you? Is it stupid to bet hoping to catch a high card? Depending on the player, I'd probably raise here, then see what the turn brings. > But lets switch position. If you are the first or second person to act, do you > bet? With AToff? only if I'm going to the later streets with it. > > Situation Two > Same situation except you hold A-x suited. You haven't paired any of the cards > but you flopped the nut flush draw. With one other person in the pot, do you > fold or do you bet hoping to hit the flush? I bet/raise as a semi-bluff, because my Ace might be good if I catch, and I can redraw to the flush if I get played with. > > Again, I would fold this hand because the pot odds do not warrant a play. > However, you do hold an ace. And if an ace flops, it might be good enough to > take the pot. Exactly, especially short-handed. > > Again, what if you are the first to act with say only one opponent? I might be > inclined to bet here. ..... or check-raise > What are your thoughts? I try to avoid those- interferes with my poker playing | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would you play these situations?, shorn, 9. Jun 2003 12:46 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| In a ring game, I would likely raise the first scenario as last to act. Depending on the opponent, I may even bet the turn again with nothing. It really depends on my image at the table and what I know about this player. Also, did they call from EP or get a free play from the BB? I am much more apt to believe that tey have a pair from the blind than from EP. Second situation is a definite raise in LP. You will get to see the river for 1 BB most of the time. Acting first, it is a check and maybe call (if I have extra outs, say ATs so tow overcards and the flush draw). Maybe I am too aggressive, but I find that with rag flops you can add to your hourly rate significantly when playing head to head or against 1 other opponent by being aggressive. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would you play these situations?, 4 POKER, 9. Jun 2003 12:50 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Situation #1 A-10 on the button. I couldn't tell you exactly how many times I would fold this hand if I didn't flop good, but I probably would fold it more often than not. Alot would have to depend if I were just limping in with this holding or if I was occasionaly making a pre-flop raise as to try and steal the pot given my position. I don't think I would fold everytime an opponent bet into me because if they noticed that you were limping in on the button and folded every single time that you were faced with a bet, they would be more inclined to make bluff bets into you and sometimes you have to make a stand. I'm not saying that you should throw good money after bad, but an occasional call is correct(you do have overcards to hit) and also the occasional bluff raise does work and should be applied sometimes- not often though, but sometimes. Situation #2 The Nut Flush Draw. Depending on how many opponents were seeing the flop, if an UTG player lead at the flop and I was next to act with several players behind me, I would simply just smooth call his bet because I would want to make sure that I was giving myself the best odds possible by allowing the other players to call one bet. If you raise the pot in this spot, then you risk the fact that everyone behind you may fold leaving you heads up. If you can allow yourself to get the best odds on a nut flush draw than make sure you are using the best possible coarse of action to do just that. Now, if you are in late or last postion holding the nut flush draw and there is a bet and several callers to you, than I would be more inclined to put in a value raise here. The players were already willing to call the first bet and by you raising in this spot will lay you even bigger odds if you hit it, not to mention, if you do hit your flush, you would have already goten that extra "dead money" into the pot on the flop by raising. If I were in a heads up situation with this draw, I often tend to be the aggressor in this spot. A few reasons why. #1, by being aggressive on the flop, you can allow yourself to take down the pot right there. #2. You can also allow yourself the free card on the turn if you don't complete your flush, but that would depend on what coarse of action you felt would give you the best chance at winning the pot- whether it be by opting for a free card or by continuing to bet,allowing your opponent to still make a fold. Now keep in mind, when you're on the nut flush draw and you raise the flop, if you don't hit it on the turn and go for the free card tactic, than you're going to be less likely now to win the pot because you showed weakness on this betting round. If I did limp in with an ace high flush draw and flopped the nut draw...I definitely would not throw my hand away just because I had very little invested. This was the flop you were asking for and I know for myself that when I do chose to play Ax suited, I am not looking to flop an ace(kicker problems), I am looking to flop the flush or the draw to the flush. . Try to think of your "moves" and decisions BEFORE the next card is turned over because you should always be one or two steps ahead of your opponents. 4 POKER. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would you play these situations?, PairTheBoard, 9. Jun 2003 13:41 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Something to consider. imo, making correct Poker Plays is a matter of frequencies, not black and white - right or wrong. There are a finite number of possible poker situations. For each category of them there is a correct freqency with which you should fold, call, or raise. Often, the frequencies are mixed, like 10%30%60%, rather than black and white, like 0%100%0%., The reason for this is that opponents will adjust their play to your play. The correct frequency is the one which works no matter how your opponents adjust. If you always fold in situation one, you are becoming a weak player. Your opponents will percieve this and take advantage of you. If you become weak tight you are ripe for the picking against good players, even good amatuers. If you never raise in situation 2, you are probably not semibluffing enough in general. You are not taking advantage of your tight play by following it up with agressiveness. The nice thing about playing tight is that it allows you to play agressive with confidence. Remember, it is often the case, especially against just one or two opponents, that nobody hits on the flop. You must take your share of these situations to be a winning tight agressive player. By playing tight you always know you have a good chance of beating any bluff. You have to play back at people with some optimal frequency. Of course what those freqencies are is still an open question probably being worked on as we speak by some Deep Blue Poker machine. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would you play these situations?, 4 POKER, 9. Jun 2003 14:39 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 9. Jun 2003 13:41 PairTheBoard wrote: > Something to consider. imo, making correct Poker Plays is a matter of frequencies, > not black and white - right or wrong. There are a finite number of possible poker > situations. For each category of them there is a correct freqency with which you > should fold, call, or raise. Often, the frequencies are mixed, like 10%30%60%, rather > than black and white, like 0%100%0%., The reason for this is that opponents will> adjust their play to your play. The correct frequency is the one which works no > matter how your opponents adjust. > > If you always fold in situation one, you are becoming a weak player. Your opponents > will percieve this and take advantage of you. If you become weak tight you are ripe > for the picking against good players, even good amatuers. > > If you never raise in situation 2, you are probably not semibluffing enough in > general. You are not taking advantage of your tight play by following it up with > agressiveness. The nice thing about playing tight is that it allows you to play > agressive with confidence. Remember, it is often the case, especially against just > one or two opponents, that nobody hits on the flop. You must take your share of these > situations to be a winning tight agressive player. By playing tight you always know > you have a good chance of beating any bluff. You have to play back at people with > some optimal frequency. Of course what those freqencies are is still an open question > probably being worked on as we speak by some Deep Blue Poker machine Great Post! 4 POKER. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would you play these situations?, Schuster, 10. Jun 2003 01:41 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 9. Jun 2003 11:11 Big_Slick wrote: > Situation One > Let's say that you have a starting hand of 20 (any combination of 10-A) and the > board flops a bunch of low trash. As an example, I'll choose 3-5-8 rainbow. > There are 2 other people in the hand with you and you're on the button. The > first player bets and the second player folds. Is this a definite fold situation > for you? Is it stupid to bet hoping to catch a high card? Gah, there are so many things I try to consider! If the game were really really soft, I'd let it go. It's easier to wait for a better opportunity. If the game were reasonably tough, then a lot more comes into play. If it's a hand like AT, then I have to worry that hitting my ace still won't be good, since a player in early position wouldn't play much worse. I'd let it go. A lot of it depends on the player. I also do consider the backdoor flush possibility if my cards are suited. Sklansky talks about backdoor draws in TTOP and that sometimes they are just enough to turn an unprofitable call into a profitable one. If you don't know the math very well though, don't justify bad calls with backdoor draws. If I picked up a flush draw and still had two overcards on the turn, then again, all about feel, but it is a strong drawing hand with a lot of ways to win. > But lets switch position. If you are the first or second person to act, do you > bet? I'm much more inclined to bet if I have an ace, and I'm even more inclined to bet if that ace is AQ or AK, since an opponent might call with an AT or AJ kind of hand. Just make sure you know what you're going to do if you get played with. > Situation Two > Same situation except you hold A-x suited. You haven't paired any of the cards > but you flopped the nut flush draw. With one other person in the pot, do you > fold or do you bet hoping to hit the flush? If the "x" is over the board, I will play this hand very strongly, and usually bet again on the turn regardless of the card that falls. If the "x" is between the top and middle cards, your hand may or may not be good if you hit the "x", but it is some extra equity. The thing is, I don't like to be in a pot where I have an A-x suited and there's not enough to justify a call. The only situation I can think of is when I'd be on the button, it had been folded to me, and the blinds were very likely to defend with just about anything. I'd probably just call here and see the flop. Now when you're bet into, you'd still be getting 3.5 to 1 on your call. Between the flush draw and the ace that might be live, I'd probably take a card off. Remember, the blind is not a good player, and the possibility of getting paid when you hit is usually enough to make the call profitable. > Again, what if you are the first to act with say only one opponent? I might be > inclined to bet here. I will usually bet here, especially if my two cards are over the board. It's a lot harder to believe someone has a flush when there's only one other guy in the pot with you, and you're likely to get paid off enough of the time to make it worthwhile if you get played with. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would you play these situations?, stdioh, 10. Jun 2003 11:52 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Situation 1 depends massively on what cards you are holding. The difference between AK and QJ is gigantic. The former, you might hold onto, since if you hit it you make top pair, top kicker. The latter you throw away like so much trash all the time. The problem with playing these cards however, is that often you'll be up against some clown who played his K7, hit a seven, and now hits his king. Your AK will be worth precisely dick, even then. Yes, there is a time to draw to overcards, but it is not nearly as often as you might think. As for situation 2, it is a classic case of it depends. You can bet or you can check or you can do either with varrying degrees of frequency, depending on your opponents and your table image. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: How would you play these situations?, Schuster, 12. Jun 2003 00:45 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| > Yes, there is a time to draw to overcards, but it is not > nearly as often as you might think. This line reminded me of Lou Krieger's piece about overcards. He said in hold'em excellence that if you never drew to just overcards, you wouldn't be costing yourself much at all in expectation. He's certainly a good card player, and his advice is probably worth it's weight. Lee | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network | Find Vancouver Businesses |
|