|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 9/4/2008 9:21:57 PM PACIFIC |
 Playing AA and KK in NL Tourny's, shorn, 9. Jun 2003 05:55 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| One more question for all you tourny pro's out there. When (if ever) is it appropriate to slowplay AA and KK in a NL tourny? The reason I ask is that I had these hands a few times last night, made the standard 3x BB raise pre-flop and then when the flop came with all undercards, someone alwas bet into me. I chose to raise each time that happened, everyone subsequently folded and I ended up winning small pots each time. I found myself feeling dissapointed at these results and was wondering if the better strategy is to call on the flop and then raise the turn? Or, is it better to take the $$ now and not let someone else catch? Each of these times was early to middle in the tourny, so I wasn't on the bubble or anything like that. Thanks in advance. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Playing AA and KK in NL Tourny's, DallasPokerFan, 9. Jun 2003 07:22 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I would not classify myself as a toureny pro, so please keep that in mind as you read this. The "standard" 3BB raise is the thing, I think, that has to be flexible. If 3 BB is allowing folks to draw into you, maybe 5BB or all-in would work. Sure, the pot doesn't get big sometimes, but a win means more chips for you. If someone does stay, it'll be with another high pair or A-K, A-Q, K-Q, I think, and if they outdraw you, well, that's just poker. But slow-playing A-A or K-K at a table where there's more than, say, 3 players left is, IMHO, not a great idea. Anything that gives someone a chance to 2-pair or make a set of deuces is not a road to go down. But, like I say, I'm no pro... | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Playing AA and KK in NL Tourny's, shorn, 9. Jun 2003 08:32 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Dallas- Good point. Perhaps I should have raised more pre-flop when I was getting 2 or 3 callers with the 3 BB. My thoughts were that I didn't want anyone to catch, so it was better to take the pots right there. I think another problem was the flops. It is likely that the bettors with those types of flops were bluffing, hoping I had AK, AQ, AJ and that I would muck. My raise told them I had an overpair, so they threw it away. Thanks for the reply. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Playing AA and KK in NL Tourny's, DallasPokerFan, 9. Jun 2003 09:45 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Sure, hope it helped. If I could, I'd like to add a couple of my thoughts. I think poker players get into problems when they say stuff like "the problem is with the flops." Flops are out of a player's control, and sometimes they'll fall your way and sometimes they won't .. that's poker .. either way, there's not a problem with them. The great ones find a way to win with good or bad flops. BTW, I'm *not* a great one .. I haven't figured out how to do that yet. Also, I think players get into trouble when they try to guess what the other person is hoping. To me, it doesn't matter what they're hoping or why they bluff .. it matters if I can tell if they're bluffing .. which in part is created by me giving them a reason think bluffing is the right thing to do. My getting caught in a bluff is sometimes really helpful down the line, and I will generally let myself get caught if it's not too expensive. It seems to me that the question is, what is the table's threshold for drawing to a suited connector, nut flush, or low- to medium-pair .. a read that only you can make. If someone stays in with a high pair or high cards, then you've got a chance to make some real money. But I'm no pro, so take this for what it's worth ..... | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Playing AA and KK in NL Tourny's, mongi, 9. Jun 2003 09:54 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I am not a pro either but here are my thoughts. 1)If you are playing in a multiway pot then I believe you have to make a play for the pot on the flop by betting or raising to at least eliminate players. 2)If you are heads-up then stack size becomes important. If your opponnent can't knock you out of the tournament or take a significant chunk of your stack then you may choose to slowplay with this hand to extract as much money from him as possible. You also have to consider your table image, have you been raising alot, are you considered a loose player. 3) If two or three players are cold calling your preflop raise and thay are decent players, then I would assume they have pretty solid holdings. If the flop is scary at all i.e. middle cards bunched together or a couple paint cards Then your raise is correct. win the pot and move on. chips lost in a tournament are worth more than the chips you win. Survival is key! | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Playing AA and KK in NL Tourny's, Andrew Wells, 9. Jun 2003 10:13 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| This considered the standard approach. I might also bet or raise somewhat less, but not enough to give a good draw odds, if I am heads-up against a large stack. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Playing AA and KK in NL Tourny's, Dave E, 9. Jun 2003 11:43 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I partially agree with Andrew. Also, as we all know, poker is a game of deception, and your play depends on the game. When you make a standard bet, and raise in too much of a textbook fashion, your saying I have a high pair please fold and leave me with a crappy pot. Sometimes you need to bet high and maybe show them when they fold. Then bet low, yeah they might draw you out, but you still have odds on your side; mixing these strategies produces deception. One last thing with the card showing, bet the same way with garbage on occasion, and make DAMN sure you show that. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Playing AA and KK in NL Tourny's, MozMan, 9. Jun 2003 08:59 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Hey Shorn- I struggle with this one too... I don't like to slow play them (stdioh does it pretty successfully, though... maybe he has some insight) because whenever I do, too many players stay in and I get out drawn. It seems to me that the only time these hands make big money is when someone else has a similar hand (like AK or a slightly smaller big pocket pair) and they are will to chance that with you. I think this just may be a hand that requires patience. Keep doing the 3 BB raise, and when the opportunity is there for a payoff, someone will re-raise you and then the race is on. -Moz "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli." | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Playing AA and KK in NL Tourny's, Guru, 9. Jun 2003 09:49 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I may be off, but I seem to find sucess in going above the three bets. If I'm that strong, I like to make a substantial raise pre-flop. I will almost always get a couple of callers for a big pot, but they tend to drop out when they miss the flop. This way I didn't slowplay, but I did get paid off. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Playing AA and KK in NL Tourny's, Mark, 9. Jun 2003 12:35 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I always try to get all my money in either pre-flop or on the flop (no matter what the flop) with AA or KK (Brunson's advice). My only concern is how to get called by someone. I want one or two players in there with me so i can double or triple my stack. If i'm in early position i'll flat call if there are aggressive players after me, when they raise i'll move all-in. If i'm in late position i'll make a substantial bet ( in a tournament at least 1/2 my stack). If anyone ever plays back at me, i immediately go all-in. If i'm not all-in pre-flop, i go all-in on the flop, regardless of what comes on the flop (again, Brunson's advice). There are too many ways to over think the hand on the flop. For example ( this happened just a few days ago and shows what happened when i violated my own (Brunson's) advice. Late into a NL tourny, i gett KK in the SB. A late position player makes a small raise, 1 caller, i re-raise with 1/2 my stack and get 2 callers. Flop comes 3 A 6. I lead out , but only a small amount. the 2 callers both go all -in. ( i should have been all-in before this point) I start thinking "someone must have an Ace, so i must fold". So i fold, even though it leaves me short stacked, and basically helpless as the blinds are about to increase. When the all-in player's cards get shown, one had QQ, the other 10-10. So i folded the best hand. AA and KK are very strong hands, but only early in the hand. By the turn and river, they go down in value. I like to get all my money in early and leave the decisions up to the other players Mark | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Playing AA and KK in NL Tourny's, LJH, 9. Jun 2003 19:42 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| SHORN, IF YOU ARE GOING TO SLOW PLAY, YOU MUST KEEP UP WITH IT, AND NOT JUMP THE GUN BY RAISIING SO EARLY. LJH | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Playing AA and KK in NL Tourny's, 4 POKER, 10. Jun 2003 00:20 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| on 9. Jun 2003 19:42 LJH wrote: > SHORN, IF YOU ARE GOING TO SLOW PLAY, YOU MUST KEEP UP WITH IT, AND NOT JUMP THE GUN > BY RAISIING SO EARLY. LJH LJH, Trust me on this one here. You may want to refrain from using all upper case letters. I'm sure you're not aware that by usuing all caps can come across as screaming and If you want to get your point across, sometimes when you just put the "key" words in capital letters, your message will be more effective. (Like I said, trust me...I've learned this from my past experiences as well)! LOL. 4 POKER | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Playing AA and KK in NL Tourny's, shorn, 10. Jun 2003 05:38 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| LJH- Not sure what you mean by "keep up with it". Do you mean continue with the slow play on the flop? I think that is what you mean and I agree. However, I am torn between deciding at what point in a tournament do you stop slowplaying? I think it is based mostly on your stack relative to the blinds/the average stack mostly, as well as the size of the pot being contested. At some point, the extra equity that you could potentially gain by slowplaying has to be offset by the fact that your stack will be crippled if someone draws out on you. Also, listen to 4POKER on the all capitals. We gave him a truckload of crap when he first came on and did that! Thanks for the advice. Steve | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: Playing AA and KK in NL Tourny's, stdioh, 10. Jun 2003 11:45 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Don't expect to win too much with these hands right away. Where they are kings (and aces) is in the end of the tournament when people are panicking out. On Saturday I played a tourney where I had AA 4 times and KK 2 times. (I ended up bubbling out as the second biggest stack against the biggest when my AJ flopped AA2 and he held 22). All four times I had aces, I didn't see a flop. Once I stole the blinds from an early position standard raise (it was a tight tourney), then I stole a minimum raise when I limp-reraised. Next I took it down on the flop with a pot sized raise, and then I won preflop with a pot sized reraise. Again my kings won when I bet hard on the flop. The last hand, the second pair of kings I raised after one limper and had him push all in with the largest stack. He had A8 and my kings stood up. Basically, what did I do that was so right? I took pots while I had the best of it rather than letting an opponent catch. True with AA you really want to see a flop, but you're much better to put somebody all-in preflop. You want to get as much money in preflop as you can and that often means raising them. Where I'll slowplay is on the bubble when it is often being folded to the blinds. I'll limp in early position in the hopes that somebody will try to get away with stealing the limps and blinds and that I'll be able to reraise them, or that I'll be heads up with the BB and he'll catch one pair. The thing to know about AA and KK in a NL tourney is when in doubt raise preflop. If you steal the blinds it is a lot better than being unable to get away from them on the flop and losing a pile of money. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network |
|