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Server Time: 10/11/2008 12:34:17 AM PACIFIC |
 Good play or unethical?, mkpoker, 8. Jun 2003 21:03 | ||
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| As an observer at a 5-10 hold 'em game (I had already folded), I saw the following transpire. I'm curious whether UPF regulars think this was a good ploy or a unethical trick. Heads up on 4th street, the late-position player bet out of turn. Once corrected by the dealer, he apologized and pulled his chips back. The EP player then checked, assuming the late player would make his originally announced bet. But instead, LP checked also, saying he "changed his mind." I'm *sure* his play out of position was intentional; designed to induce a check and get a free card. (The river was a blank and LP folded after a bet). Assuming my read was correct, was the LP's out-of-position "accidental" bet unethical or a good ploy? | ||
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| Re: Good play or unethical?, jj, 8. Jun 2003 21:09 | ||
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| I don't think anything that is not against the rules is unethical. I think it's just gamesmanship. | ||
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| Re: Good play or unethical?, Swagman, 8. Jun 2003 21:14 | ||
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| Playing out of turn is against the rules or am I wrong? I think that sort of play is unethical. If you did that on a regular basis and it was brought to the attention of someone important to the casino, and the behavior didnt stop you could be banned from the card room. Its not necessary, a good player doesnt need that kind of edge. Its a cheep ploy from a mediocre player. | ||
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| Re: Good play or unethical?, MozMan, 8. Jun 2003 21:17 | ||
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| Betting out of turn IS against the rules for the very reason that you can unfairly cause someone to behave in a way you want them to. It is therefore unethical to do it purposely. -Moz "Leave the gun. Take the cannoli." | ||
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| Re: Good play or unethical?, Roy Cooke, 8. Jun 2003 22:33 | ||
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| In many cardrooms (The Bellagio and Mirage for sure) the player could (and should) be made to leave the bet in. Such moves may have short run success, but are bad for poker in the long run. This move should be against the rules and be enforced. Roy Cooke | ||
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| Re: Good play or unethical?, Harold Pierce, Jr., 9. Jun 2003 01:47 | ||
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| There should be a rule such that if you bet out of turn, your chips stay in the pot as a penalty. The betting then commences with the player who was to initiate the action. | ||
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| Re: Good play or unethical?, Swagman, 9. Jun 2003 03:21 | ||
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| Forward motion of any kind should not be tolerated as well. Whether it is someone pretending to muck his card, or someone moving in his chips. The person that initiates that motion should automatically be folded. Its just bad form. If you feel the need to use such an weak ploy, then picking up the appropriate amount of chips or picking up and playing with a raised amount of chips is the only thing that should be tolerated. It general its a terrible tell anyhows, because unless he's doing a surberb acting job you know that person doesnt have crapola. | ||
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| Re: Good play or unethical?, DallasPokerFan, 9. Jun 2003 07:13 | ||
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| I respectfully disagree. The player's voice supersedes his action, so as someone in a seat behind an ambiguous, I can wait as long as it takes for me to understand what someone's action was. There is no rule that says I must play or fold within X seconds of the previous player's decision. I can even ask the dealer or the player if I'm not sure. By being careful, you can remove this arrow from the poor player's quiver and keep him off what he probably thinks is his best weapon. That being said, I agree that such a move is bush-league and I don't like it either, other than it's so easy to counter and throw the bush-leaguer off his game. | ||
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| Re: Good play or unethical?, PairTheBoard, 9. Jun 2003 01:08 | ||
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| Like Roy said. Something like this happened to me in a game at Binion's. I was in last position on the river. A solid player and good friend of mine was in first position and checked. The man next to him who I knew was a frequent bluffer bet. My hand was completely busted, but it was a good size pot and I thought a raise would take out my friend in first postion, and even my busted hand might beat the bluffer. Well, my friend was pretty sure he could beat me but was afraid of an overcall or reraise by the man in the middle. My buddy gave me several looks and gave the man in the middle several looks trying to get a read on us. People at the table were starting to get impatient with the delay. So guess what he did? He faked a muck. It was a nice fake too. It was so good he got the guy in the middle to muck his hand out of turn. My so called friend then quickly called the bet and took down a large pot that imo rightfully belonged to me. I could hardly believe my eyes and there was nothing I could do about it. :( | ||
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| Re: Good play or unethical?, 4 POKER, 9. Jun 2003 09:31 | ||
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| I know that where I play(Atlantic City),if a player bets out of turn he will be forced to leave the bet in the pot no matter what. Acting out of turn is a way to gain an unearned advantage against the other players involved and is not fair and is unethical. Yes, a player can make a mistake however, noone would have a way of proving whether his bet was unintended or a ploy to gain information, thus for giving him an edge. That is why rules are made- so everything can be ran smoothly, efficiently, fairly and wiith everyones' best interest in mind. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Good play or unethical?, Andrew Wells, 9. Jun 2003 10:22 | ||
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| Unethical, this player was shooting an angle. | ||
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| Re: Good play or unethical?, Risky Business, 9. Jun 2003 10:25 | ||
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| Mike Caro, our resident genius, warns us about Strong-Means-Weak, out of turn betting. I would have tested the tell and bet into him, then tipped my hat to Mr. Caro, when he folded. on 9. Jun 2003 10:22 Andrew Wells wrote: > Unethical, this player was shooting an angle. | ||
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| Re: Good play or unethical?, stdioh, 10. Jun 2003 11:22 | ||
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| It is definitely unethical and is as angle-shooty as you can get. Brantford has a rule that if you bet out of turn your money is locked into the pot and you cannot do anything but make a bet or call a bet. The action is still prior to you, but you cannot take back your money. Now if there is a bet and raise before you, you can fold with one bet in or call the second bet (and they would probably let you make it three), but you don't get that money back to your stack. Thus there is no reason to shoot this angle and it doesn't get done. | ||
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