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Server Time: 9/6/2008 10:00:43 AM PACIFIC |
 Therapy Please, Help, mroban, 5. Jun 2003 08:21 | ||
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| Okay, I need a bit of group therapy here. I am not nearly as experienced as some of the guys who post here but I have been playing Hold 'em for a few years now and usually hold my own in B&M $5-10 in AC and have won over $500 since playing online (at Pokerroom) in the past 4 months (mostly $1-2 and $2-4). Also, I play in $5 and $10 sit and gos and finish in the money more often than not. Anyway, the past week, I have had 3 losing sessions in a row and watched by bankroll shrink over $100. The other night, within the span of an hour, I lost $52 with the following starting hands: KK (2 times), QQ (2 times), 88 (2 times), 10-10, 99, 55. Obviously the pocket 88 and pocket 55 are not premium hands and I didn't invest much in them. I do play a bit aggressively and will raise preflop on pairs over 99. The room I was playing in were all rather passive and called everything. So it was tough to tell if the had anything legit to call with. Typically I would make it another bet to go on the flop (even when I missed the flop, which I did each time). On QQ hands, I lost to A-4 unsuited (called my preflop raise from Dealer position and picked up an ace on the flop - I bet into him, he called, checked on the river, he checked too) and against pocket 44. The pocket 44 was a very loose player who was very hot that night. He raised preflop, I re-raised and he re-raised again!! I called the re-raise and the flop came down rags and rainbow. My QQ was clearly the favorite. I bet again and he called. The turn comes a 4. I bet again, he re-raises, I groan and call him. I raise on the river, he calls. With the first pocket KK, I played similarly as above, raising preflop, getting called by a few. Flop came Q-10-x rainbow. I bet with two callers on the flop. On the turn comes a J so i pick up a straight draw (as does anyone holding a K, thinking I am against K-J or KQ). Still, I feel I am the favorite here. River is a blank. I bet it out, one folds and the other calls. Shows Q-10 for the win. The second pocket KK, I bet aggressively as above. Flop was Kd-Jc-9c. I bet aggressively again, with one caller. Nice. I bet, he calls again. Turn is a low club. Damn. I bet again, he calls. River is another club. I check, he checks and he turns over the flush. The pocket 10 I overplayed, so there is no reason for therapy. I overplayed it against a pair of pocket AA. I picked up the set on the flop but so did he. Only hand that could beat my was pocket AA but his betting (in retrospect) clearly indicated the set of Aces. I have to learn to throw those hands away (still very tough for me to do so). I actually raised and reraised him on the turn (a blank) and raised and called the river. Ouch. But again, this was a very loose player who would play this way with A-K hitting high pair or with 2 pair. I still thought I had a good chance of winning (again, only AA could have beaten me). Last night was almost as bad. Pocket AA beaten by runner, runner hands (one double belly buster!!) and one flush. Soooo....I am down about $120 this week playing mostly premium hands. I didn't invest much in the lower pairs (tossed them when missed the flop completely) but can only whine about continuously missing flops with them. I also had a few big draws with correct odds to play (and lots of action) that could have paid off big (but natch, they didn't hit and I lost a few extra big bets on the turn in both instances - one I will post later for comment). Anyone want to offer some therapy for me? I have been a consistent winner (and whiner here) and I know it will turn around. But getting a bit demoralized this week. Hate to be a whiner here, but just need to vent it a bit. It is affecting my confidence. | ||
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| Re: Therapy Please, Help, mroban, 5. Jun 2003 08:24 | ||
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| meant to add that I lost 2x with pocket AA last night (if that makes a difference to anyway) within the span of 10 minutes!! Thats over $70 i have lost with just big pairs alone with no wins to show for it. | ||
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| Re: Therapy Please, Help, shorn, 5. Jun 2003 08:36 | ||
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| Sounds like to me you lost less than you should of considering how aggressive you were. Those types of streaks happen...you just have to deal with them. Keep playing premium hands and it will turn around, likely in one monster session where everything goes correctly. | ||
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| Re: Therapy Please, Help, sburne, 5. Jun 2003 09:45 | ||
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| I agree. You need to reassess your agressiveness in a limit game. No one is respecting your raises. This will make your variances wide. If you can live with that good luck. I've moved to no-limit where a raise makes them think about going for draws. | ||
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| Re: Therapy Please, Help, Big_Slick, 5. Jun 2003 09:20 | ||
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| You need to be careful not to marry your pocket pairs (or A-K for that matter). If you're holding Q-Q and the flop comes with an ace, there is a good chance that you are now the second best hand. With 3 or 4 other people seeing the flop, this is magnified. There might be 2 people with A-x and now you're 3rd best. You will start to see an improvement in your game when you learn to pick your battles better and muck pairs that don't work out for you. Especially when there are overcards. Now, in the case when you had K-K, the flop brought a king and you lost to a flush on the river... that's just a bad beat and that will happen. Good luck with your game! | ||
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| Re: Therapy Please, Help, stdioh, 5. Jun 2003 10:19 | ||
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| These things happen. Take it in stride. I've lost 120 big bets in a 3 session 26 hour run. I felt like a one legged man in an ass kicking competition. Get over it and keep playing your A game and the long run will catch back up with you. | ||
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| Re: Therapy Please, Help, noiseboy, 5. Jun 2003 10:41 | ||
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| When you are running bad, you need to take a few days off and not think about poker. One trap you might fall into, is when you are getting all your hands drawn out on, you start to EXPECT to lose. Then you will not play as well as you should and end up playing tight weak. Anyway, a few days away from the table will usually work wonders. Also, remember that downswings are just part of the game, and that if you are playing better than your opponents, you will get the money, eventually. Limit poker was designed for the losing players to lose their money more slowly than at No Limit, so that they will keep coming back to the game. I don't mind when the fish book a winning session now and then playing bad hands to the river, it keeps them coming back, and it reinforces their bad play. GL | ||
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| Re: Therapy Please, Help, mroban, 5. Jun 2003 10:52 | ||
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| Thanks guys, thats basically what I wanted to hear. FYI, whoever suggested No Limit, I am planning to move to that but feel I need to study the game a little bit more. I agree that perhaps the aggressive play does not work so well in a low limit online game. It works well for me in B&M $5-10. Also, I appreciate the comment about JJ against a flop that contains overcards and am well aware of it. For me though, I like to take a shot at "representing top pair" especially if I do not have position to see if I can win the hand on the flop. What I need to do more is fold on the turn if I get called. More often than not (unless I am playing an absolute fish) they have paired up on the flop with the Q or K and I am now an underdog. I suppose while I may win a few of these in the long run its a losing play to try to ram this through and I should just check and fold on the turn (if raised). But I do think it is correct to try to win the pot on the flop with a big pair unless there is a lot of pre-flop raising. Then I think perhaps to check and fold on the flop might be more correct in that situation. Thoughts? Thanks guys! | ||
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| Re: Therapy Please, Help, shorn, 5. Jun 2003 11:04 | ||
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| I think it depends upon the number of opponents in the hand. Heads up or against only two, then I might bet. 3 or more and I will almost be certain someone has an Ace (a K or Q is less clear). | ||
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| Re: Therapy Please, Help, flintsword, 5. Jun 2003 10:56 | ||
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| Aggression = larger swings in your bankroll. The problem here is less your getting your premium hands cracked, and more with the fact that your loose opponents are not giving your raises any respect ... The general idea is that a big raise means you have a big hand and other players will not draw against it for fear of drawing dead. (Ok, ok, this is a BIG simplification, but a good general idea) Did the table "catch you bluffing" or simply observe all your big hands get cracked so felt safe betting into you, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy? So what should you do? Temporary measures are: slow-playing big pairs so you can bet the nuts aggressively, but minimize the cracked major hands, or practice your big laydowns. There is no better time to practice big laydowns than when they are being cracked. The above will make you feel better, but poker is a long term proposition, Play the big hands well, ... not wild, there is a difference here and possibly you will have to search your play for overbetting. Hope that helps. flintsword | ||
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| Re: Therapy Please, Help, mroban, 5. Jun 2003 11:29 | ||
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| Flint - words of great wisdom. Although I think intuitively I know this, it really helps to hear it from someone else. To answer your question, I think there is a combination of factors. One, in online $1-2, players are looser and will call more hands. Ax offsuit is garbage, but many players will want to see a flop for that, especially against only one player in good position (not me). Secondly, I think players astutely noticed my aggressive play with big pairs was not paying off and some players decided to call me every time I raised (two in particular). I should mention that the only hands I have won in the past few days have been on stone cold bluffs. Players seem more likely to fold after seeing the flop than before. If you ask me, thats a great way to lose money in the long term, but in the short term they are killing me by hitting their underdog flops against my big pairs. Last night I did just what you said and slowplayed a few big hands on the flop and it paid off. I still had a losing night (because of the two AA debacles) but I felt the strategy starting to work. Only problem with the slowplay is it makes a bet on the flop (if you miss it) look like a steal. I like repping the top set. But yeah, if they ain't buying, I need to sell something else. Great advice Flint. | ||
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| Re: Therapy Please, Help, MozMan, 5. Jun 2003 11:52 | ||
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| on 5. Jun 2003 11:29 mroban wrote: > Secondly, I think players astutely noticed my aggressive play with big pairs was not > paying off and some players decided to call me every time I raised (two in particular). This is when it becomes important to adjust. When you have big cards or pocket pairs, you are really raising because you want to drive people out; these hands play better with fewer in the pot. If you know there are multiple people that will call every raise, then save the money and limp in more often. When you catch big on the flop, you can trap them and make them pay. -Moz "There is no spoon." | ||
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| Re: Therapy Please, Help, mroban, 5. Jun 2003 13:53 | ||
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| true, true. In late position, a re-raise only adds to the pot as few people ever throw away their hand for one more bet. What I have started doing is calling from late position (although I like the position raise to eliminate the Dealer in the cutoff spot) and raising early and middle. There are still enough folders to be able to eliminate callers. However, when I get into a true no foldem game where everyone is seeing the pot you are right, there is no real reason to raise. There is enough money in the pot with everyone calling. MR | ||
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| Re: Therapy Please, Help, DallasPokerFan, 5. Jun 2003 16:04 | ||
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| I think I understand. I have been losing consistently on the 3/6 and 4/8 tables lately, about $100 per 5 or 6-hr session. I haven't lost my head, but it's difficult sometimes when old guys who don't care just want to see all 5 cards. I lost 4-5 hands on the river, even though I bet well (or so I thought). Also, my flops haven't been much help .. no flushes and only 1 set in my last 3 sessions. I had a lot of success at a no-limit THE tourney and got outdrawn, which will happen, but not outplayed. I do want to start winning on the limit tables, but I guess I'll have to wait and see. | ||
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