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Server Time: 2/12/2012 9:39:13 AM PACIFIC |
 Building A Bankroll, Big_Slick, 5. Jun 2003 07:32 | ||
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| Was wondering if anyone could share their experience of building a bankroll. How long it took you to get to your goal, the steps you took to get there, any downfalls you may have experienced, your timeline for moving up into a higher game, etc. I can't remember... do the experts recommend a 300 or 600 BB bankroll? For a 15/30 player, a 600 BB is $18,000. I can't believe that most 15/30 players have that backing. While it does sound like a lot of money to me, a good 15/30 player can win $1,000+ in one good session, right? Just wanted any thoughts. | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, shorn, 5. Jun 2003 07:39 | ||
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| Big-slick: I think that a bankroll of 600 BB's is applicable to someone who plays for a living only, on the off chance that they run into a bad run of cards for an extended period (say a full month where you are losing 3 out fo every 4 sessions). It also depends on the game that you are playing and your relative status in it. If you are definitely beating the game, then 300 BB's (even 250) is definitely enough provided you are a disciplined enough player to not go on tilt, etc. As for me, I play mostly online now with 4 trips to a B&M a year and maybe a week in Vegas each year. For the most part, I am playing with 300 BB's to start as a bankroll and then up from there (hopefully). However, on my casino trips, I will play as high a limit as 100 BB's to my bankroll depending on the game. I think if you are a solid player who consistently beats the game in which he is playing (say 65%+ of the time), then you can do with 250 BB's and be fine. Steve | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, Big_Slick, 5. Jun 2003 09:05 | ||
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| Hey Steve, There was a post recently about when the best times are to play in a B&M. What has your experience been on-line? Obviously, you are going to have more recreation players playing in the evenings. What about playing during the day? Are the sharks out if full force then? Have you seen a difference? Thanks. | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, shorn, 5. Jun 2003 10:39 | ||
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| Big- My experience online is that the time to play really isn't as big a factor. This is because when it is 10 PM your time, it is 4 AM somewhere else and vice versa. My best advice here is to find the time of day (if you have the ability to choose) that you feel the most sharp. Most of the big online sites (Paradise, Party, Planet) will always have enough tables going at the low limits to get into a good game. Also, I generally try to avoid tables with players from notorious poker grounds (LV, AC, LA) because I want to be the best player at any table at which I sit down. I also keep extensive player notes and a lists of people that I consider to be lambs and/or very solid and then sit a t a lamb table and (hopefully) avoid the solid player tables. Hope this helps. | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, stdioh, 5. Jun 2003 08:04 | ||
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| A 300 BB bankroll is seen as necessary in order to have a statistically very insignificant chance of busting it if you are a winning player. That said, you don't need a bankroll to play poker - you just have to have the ability to absorb your losses. For instance, if you have an income from a day job and are playing poker as a sideline, and you have disposable income that you are willing to risk at poker, you don't need a bankroll at all. Lets say, for example, that you have $400 each week that you could *afford* to lose. Now on week one you sit at 10-20 and lose it, so you go home and don't play for a week. Now on week 2 you lose it again, so you go home again and don't play for a week again. Repeat ad eminem. The only difference here is that you need to rest when you are swinging down too much. The equivalent would be socking away $400 each week for 15 weeks, then taking your $6000 roll to the tables with you, but you want to play now, don't you? So to make a long story short, I would say that if you are playing in your spare time or semiprofessionally, you don't need a roll of 300 BB, but you do need to be ready, willing, and able, to lose 300 BB without quitting poker or disrupting your life or your family. If you stick in on your credit card today and pay it off a month down the road, there's nothing wrong with that, so long as you know that you are a winning player and have the data to back this up. | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, Big_Slick, 5. Jun 2003 09:02 | ||
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| Here is my situation. I am not a professional player but would like to be one. I don't know if I'm a good enough player to accomplish this or if I could ever be a good enough player. But I've decided to give it a try. Here are my thoughts... I'm currently playing 3/6. I invested $500 to start my bankroll. I realize that at 3/6 and $500, I only have roughly 80 BB. I have played tight however and managed to build it up to $800. For me (even in my infancy), there is a physiological advantage to keeping my poker money separate from my regular money. For me, it makes me manage my poker money more carefully. I can't use the excuse "I can just deposit more money Friday when my paycheck gets deposited". I find that is helping me play better and make better decisions. I would obviously like to build my bankroll up so that I can progress to 4/8 (if anyone offers it online) and then 5/10. But again, I'd like the psychological advantage of have 300-600 BB there to keep me company. That said, I'm a long way from the next level. I realize that I may be counting my chickens before they are hatched but I am a firm believer in visualization and having a plan. I'm not disagreeing with you at all... just wanted to bounce my ideas off of you and other players. I'm just a rookie here trying to make it to the big leagues. One more question... there are a few people here at UPF who play 15/30. I would think that for a professional player, hat would be a very comfortable place to be. However, although I'm not a poker expert, I know a lot about the human condition. I'm thinking that if I ever did make it to the 15/30 level, I wouldn't be happy. I'd be looking to increase my limit. So to get to my question, are the 15/30 players happy at this level or are they focusing on moving up some more? Thanks for everyone's thoughts. | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, stdioh, 5. Jun 2003 10:28 | ||
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| Well, one of the reasons why a limit like 15/30 looks so good on the surface is that it would provide a reasonable income were you beating it. The fact is though, that in most places a 15/30 isn't the best game to be in. Look at it this way: Lets make up a casino, call it Duke's Palace. At Duke's Palace they spread 5-10, 10-20, 15-30, 20-40, 30-60, and 50-100. The 5-10 gets most of the fish and a competent player can cream it. The 10-20 gets some real mistake makers and an expert player can easilly beat it. The 15-30 gets the better 10-20 players and the worse 20-40 players. The 20-40, 30-60, and 50-100 are filled with very competent players who are all advanced winning players in general, plus some fish you want to play in bigger games. Let us assume that the first two seats in every table are filled with fish and that everybody else at the bigger games is some form of solid. What happens is that you start off at the 5-10, make money, move up, make money, move up. Now you're at the 15-30 and there are a couple of fish at your table and 7 solid opponents. You find yourself pulling the fish apart with lots of competition and your competitors are hard to make any real money from. You're probably not beating the game by much. The fish are paying the rake for the table and the rest of you are shoving money around between you. Now lets say that you get good enough to really beat the 15-30. Now you're getting the rake paid by the fish, but you're also beating the solid players there by being that much better. Hey, you're Roy Cooke. You say, "hmmm...seems that the solid players at the 20-40, 30-60, and 50-100 aren't that different than the solid players at the 15-30 and there are 2 big fish in every game. As soon as I have the roll I'm moving up." The way I see it, games like 15-30 tend to be transition games. People are either regular fish there or they are playing there for a short period of time. Either they get good enough, build a roll, and move to a better game, or they don't get good enough and move back down to the 10-20. In general I would say that it is hard to find a 5-10, 10-20, and 15-30 in the same room where you can take more money off the 15-30 than you can off the 10-20. | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, Big_Slick, 5. Jun 2003 10:32 | ||
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| Wow... great post. Thanks, stdioh. | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, shorn, 5. Jun 2003 10:50 | ||
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| I think what you say is very true. At Foxwoods, the difference between the 10-20 and the 15-30 is enormous...the 15-30 is full of pro's who make their living at poker. The 10-20 is split up between a few solid players who aren't pro, a few aspiring 5-10 players who are taking a shot, a few complete fish who always play the same, never will change, and just happen to be rich, and a few tourists. Even with this lineup, I find that the 5-10 kill game is the best to play in to make serious $$, so I generally stay there. I will NEVER play in the 15-30 at Foxwoods (only in Vegas), and only occassionally the 10-20 if one of the solid players is gone. I do the math...3 BB per hour in the 5-10 game is better than 1.2 in the 10-20 AND I have lower swings. There are many players out there who feel like they always have tobe in a bigger game for ID purposes. Don't fall into this trap... | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, Big_Slick, 5. Jun 2003 11:51 | ||
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| Hey Shorn, I know that you know that all the experts say that 1 BB per hour is all most players can expect. Has your 3 BB per hour been over a long enough period to where you know this is your actual profit per hour? I'm not doubting you or your play... just curious as to why you are able to extract that much more. Are the players really that bad in the 5-10 game? Thanks. | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, MozMan, 5. Jun 2003 12:04 | ||
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| I know you were asking shorn, but thought I woud jump in... I'm finding that I'm averaging just under 3 BB in my 3/6 game over the long haul. I've been experimenting with 4/8 and 6/12 lately, and have only had a couple sessions in each, so I can't really say how much worse I do there. (In the 6/12, I'm actually negative, but it's a pretty tough game at my casino... at least for someone with as little experience as me). I think, though, that at low limits, it's generally easier to have a higher number of BBs per hour because the games will always be looser. -Moz "There is no spoon." | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, Big_Slick, 5. Jun 2003 12:22 | ||
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| So let me ask you this... are the experts playing in such difficult games that they have come to the conclusion that 1BB per hour is all most can expect (because that is all they are making in their games full of professionals??) Shorn had mentioned that the 15-30 game at Foxwoods was very difficult. The reason I'm asking is because I seem to be winning at a larger pace than 1BB per hour. Granted, I haven't played long enough to make any sort of claims. However, it did get me thinking whether I've been getting a little lucky or simply playing good. I'd be very excited to learn that good players can expect more than 1BB per hour in low limit games. | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, Wren, 5. Jun 2003 12:36 | ||
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| In very low limit games, it isn't unreasonable for a very good player to be making 1.5-2 BB/hr, or perhaps even slightly higher. We make money from other people's mistakes, and there are just so many mistakes made at low limit games that we have opportunities to profit much more frequently than we do at higher limit games. That being said, there is the whole phenomenon of "implicit collusion", when you're in a low limit game that's just SOO clueless and juicy that great starting hands will rarely hold up, excellent plays go unnoticed, and some players are sooo bad that they don't even exhibit tells (because they don't even know how strong their hands are)! In a game like this, you're forced to play the probabilities pretty much alone, betting for value and knowing when to get out. I'd be inclined to say that a good player's win rate might actually be lower in a game like this, because he/she is unable to "outplay", and, hence, is essentially brought down to the skill level of an "ABC" dedicated newbie player. I think it would be very difficult to determine the maximum win rate one could achieve, because tables are always so different in texture, and because one is not always playing at one's theoretical best. I think the 1 BB/hr figure is quoted because it is a reasonable wage that one can expect to earn if one is, in general, playing at a table on which the average other player makes more mistakes than oneself. (The previous discussion refers to B&M play, of course. A winning player can expect to make 1.5-2x the hourly rate for a given limit playing online, since approximately twice the number of hands are dealt per hour. However, it will likely be slightly less, proportionally, because online play does not give the winning player the ability to notice and exploit tells. But that's another thread :) | ||
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| Crap, stdioh, 5. Jun 2003 12:42 | ||
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| I responded before I read your response and said pretty much exactly the same thing, right down to the phrase "dedicated newbie" ... I feel like such a copycat :) | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, stdioh, 5. Jun 2003 12:40 | ||
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| A pro and a dedicated newbie would probably play almost exactly the same way at a 5-10 table. The way to beat a loose passive table is to be tight and agressive and push around the loose passive players. You can pretty much play ABC poker from Lee Jones and not be doing anything better. Thus, the pros can't extract giant money from the fishy game, but they can still beat the bigger games because they use advanced strategies against competent players. It is very hard to beat any B&M game for more than 2 BB/hour in the long haul. | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, MozMan, 5. Jun 2003 12:42 | ||
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| I think that might be the case, but keep in mind that 1 BB in 10/20 is a lot more than 3 BB in 3/6... if I can get to the point where I can claim I am making 1 BB in a big game like that, I will take it over the 3 in low limit. -Moz "There is no spoon." | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, shorn, 5. Jun 2003 12:30 | ||
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| My results come over about 1500 hours of play, so a decent sample of time. Not "the long run" by any means, but I think enough to say that the mean of 3 BB's per hour is relatively true. I think that LL players can win more than 1 BB per hour over the longer term. However, you really have to stay disciplined and not allow small losses to be bigger than they should (this is something I am still working on as I probably could be at over 4 BB's if I had complete, "Wren-like" zone control). | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, stdioh, 5. Jun 2003 12:43 | ||
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| Wow. 1500 hours at 3 BB/hour is very impressive. Maybe you have found the magic table. | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, shorn, 6. Jun 2003 04:55 | ||
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| The table is pretty juicy, without a doubt. And as I stated, 1500 hours is not the long run by any means. Obviously there are periods within where my results are much worse and much better. But, for some reason, the caliber of player in the 5-10 kill game that I spoke of is incredibly weak and has stayed that way. I can only hope that it continues to be that way. BTW< my online results aren't nearly as impressive...0.75/BB per hour so far in two years of play. Ugh... | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, 4 POKER, 6. Jun 2003 06:11 | ||
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| on 6. Jun 2003 04:55 shorn wrote: > The table is pretty juicy, without a doubt. And as I stated, 1500 hours is not the long run by any means. Obviously > there are periods within where my results are much worse and much better. But, for some reason, the caliber of player > in the 5-10 kill game that I spoke of is incredibly weak and has stayed that way. > > I can only hope that it continues to be that way. BTW< my online results aren't nearly as impressive...0.75/BB per > hour so far in two years of play. Ugh... Honest and Modest...Good Combination... 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, stdioh, 6. Jun 2003 08:53 | ||
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| I guess with it being a kill game there is a little more +EV that you can suck out of it too. | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, Wren, 5. Jun 2003 12:45 | ||
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| Shorn, You're pulling in 3 BB/hr in 1500 hours of live 5-10 play?? That is absolutely enormous. Wow. I am making 1.3 BB/hr in 284 hours at the Brantford 5-10. It's a decent figure, but I know it could be higher - I had a few sessions during which I was bored, playing too loose, and not focusing. I've had other sessions during which I was not beating a table (due to other players' competency, my state of mind, etc. etc.) and I opted not to leave when I should have. If I was playing at my best during this entire time, I think I would have made more like 1.6 or 1.7 BB/hr. But nowhere near 3. I suppose it's possible that you've had more than your fair share of good luck, but over 1500 hours, I suspect that it would have more or less evened out. All I can say is Wow, Congrats and Keep it Up! (Oh - and quit your day job, if you have one ;) | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, shorn, 6. Jun 2003 04:56 | ||
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| Thanks Wren. Again, it would be naive of me to assume that over 5000 hours, it will stay the same, but so far it has been good. Unfortunately, I do have a day job (albeit a pretty good one) and would be foolish to try and replicate my income through poker. But, thanks for the ego stroke! | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, stdioh, 5. Jun 2003 12:38 | ||
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| It is very hard to find a game, nomatter how fishy, in a B&M casino that you can consistently beat for 3 BB/hour. I think 2 is pretty much an upper bound. | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, noiseboy, 5. Jun 2003 10:58 | ||
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| Wow, your card room is just like mine. I like to play 15-30 when the game is soft, but frequently find I'm better off at the 6-12 or even sometimes a really loose 3-6 game. However, I always take a look at the 15-30 and if it looks appealing, I'll jump in. The higher limits are sometimes looser on weekends when you get more recreational players who got lucky at the lower limits taking a shot. During the week, 15-30 can be a rock garden and everyone knows you can't squeeze blood from a stone. | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, stdioh, 5. Jun 2003 12:45 | ||
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| Au contraire. There is lots of money to be made off of rocks - you just have to know how to deal with them. Steal blinds. Steal pots on the turn with a clever bluff. Play your hands when you have the nuts and play your hands when your opponents are rocking it up and not betting. True, there's more money to be made from fish, but rocks don't mean no profit. | ||
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| Re: Building A Bankroll, noiseboy, 5. Jun 2003 13:05 | ||
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| True, but unfortunately, maybe rock wasn't the term I was looking for, as the players are tight, and many quite aggressive to boot. They are only rocks compared to the super loose players you get at the lower limits. | ||
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