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Server Time: 12/3/2008 1:58:59 PM PACIFIC |
 Thanks and a question, Randall Edmunds, 4. Jun 2003 16:40 | ||
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| Hi Folks, Thanks to the good advice and encouragement from people on this site I finally started playing on-line for "real" money a few weeks ago. (Just very low limit so far--1/2 and 2/4) After a shaky start I am now up a little over 400 in 3 weeks. Soooo--thanks to everyone!! Now for my question--I think I may be giving up too many bets on the river in the following scenarios: Let's say I am on the button, betting all the way with top pair(or overpair)/top kicker after 1 or 2 other players check and then call. Whenever a 3rd flush card or straight card comes on the river, I find it very difficult to make the final bet (after a check) for fear of the check raise. Am I giving up too much? | ||
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| Re: Thanks and a question, shorn, 5. Jun 2003 04:47 | ||
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| Randall- This depends upon a couple of factors: how good a read you have on your opponents, the overall texture of the board, and (more importantly) how many opponents there are. With 3 opponents who have all checked to you each round I would check it down most times because there are many players online who will play any two suited cards (you will routinely see J4s and Q2s take down pots), so you have to figure that one of them has a flush. Obviously, if they have been checking and calling and then bet the river when the flush card comes, you are almost always beaten (again, this applies only to LLHE...up to 5-10, as the higher limit players might bluff the flush card). The texture of the board becomes quite important too. You have to ask yourself "Are there any other draws out there that they could have been on?". With a final board of A94J2 with three flush cards, there really isn't anything else a normal player would be calling with other than the flush (albeit if they are terrible players, you could be shown 53o for the str8, but you can't always assume you are against a made str8), so I am less inclined to bet the river when the flush card hits. Also, were there 2 flush cards on the flop or was it a runner runner? Finally, against two or one player, I am more apt to bet the river when the flush card hits (for value) because a lot of LL players will call you down with 3rd or even 4th pair "just to keep you honest". This is where you should be betting for value. Keep in mind though that if you are check-raised on the river, almost always fold. At the limits that you are playing, it is a rare player that will check/call the whole way and then CR the river without the flush. Anyway, as you play online for longer, you will get more of a feel as to what the correct play is in these circumstances. As with many (if not all) questions in poker, the answer is "it depends." Hope this helped. Steve | ||
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| Re: Thanks and a question, stdioh, 5. Jun 2003 08:21 | ||
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| Generally, you can expect to call the river a lot in situations like this and lose, but if you make a catastrophic fold 1 in 10 times, you are giving away a lot of money. It is very easy for a player to bluff when a scare card comes, especially if they see that you like to fold scary rivers. Basically if it is a total calling station who only bets when on a monster and they bet the river, you can think about folding, but in general you should be calling on the river a lot if you are getting there. | ||
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| Re: Thanks and a question, shorn, 5. Jun 2003 08:47 | ||
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| I agree. You shouldn't be folding the river that often because it is a big error when you are wrong. However, you most likely shouldn't be betting it that often either, especially into multiple opponents because in that situation you will only be called by a hand that you can't beat. | ||
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| Re: Thanks and a question, Big_Slick, 5. Jun 2003 11:45 | ||
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| I agree. Lets say that the game is head to head. The board shows 3 diamonds with the third one coming on the river. You hold the top 2 pair and you figure that you opponent was trying for the flush but you can't be 100% sure. If you are first to act, you need to check. Here's why... If your opponent has the flush, he will obviously match your bet. He could also raise you. In this case, you will either lose one bet if you fold or 2 bets if you call. Now, if you bet and he doesn't have the flush, chances are pretty good that he is just going to fold anyways. This is a bad play because you are risking one BB with nothing to gain. You are not accomplishing anything with this bet. You're basically risking money that you should not be risking. So lets say that you check and he checks and you have him beat, great! Collect your pot and move on to the next hand. So that leaves the problem of when your opponent bets and is bluffing or wasn't even going for a flush. Maybe he has 2 pair smaller than yours. Maybe he is just an idiot throwing money around. This is where you need to have a read on your opponent and his play. No matter what, this is a tough decision to make. Anyways, I hope this makes sense to you... what I mentioned about checking on the river is a very powerful concept that I was oblivious to for a long time. | ||
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| Re: Thanks and a question, shorn, 5. Jun 2003 13:16 | ||
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| Big- This is a great post. Sound LL advice and easy to understand. | ||
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| Re: Thanks and a question, Big_Slick, 5. Jun 2003 13:42 | ||
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| thanks Shorn... once in a while I make sense. =) | ||
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| Re: Thanks and a question, Randall Edmunds, 5. Jun 2003 12:55 | ||
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| Man you guys are GREAT!! I am so impressed by the generosity of some of the people on this site, as well as the level of knowledge. Yes to all-- your advice was very clear and sensible. I even used it today to my advantage. Thanks again, Randy | ||
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| Re: Thanks and a question, noiseboy, 5. Jun 2003 13:15 | ||
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| Nope, this is sometimes a good play to check here, then make a crying call if someone bets, just in case your pair is still good. The thing is if you bet, people will probably only call you if they have it, the third flush or str8 card will make it hard for people with hands worse than yours to call. You can also bet out, intending to fold if you get raised, because at low limits if the scare card comes, it is a rare player that will raise you as a pure bluff. However, you are in danger of making a catastrophic fold if there is any doubt in your mind. I think the way you are playing it is probably fine. Only fold if you are 99.99% certain you are beat, after all in limit it's only one more bet for a chance to win a big pot. I usually play top pair as the best hand until a FOURTH flush or str8 card comes or if it is being played with many people in the pot, I might slow down with the third scare card. Usually, I just keep hammering until somebody raises me, or the board is looking like my worst nightmare. Of course, this is really general and a lot depends on the unique texture of the flop. | ||
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| Re: Thanks and a question, mongi, 6. Jun 2003 13:00 | ||
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| I think another thing to consider is, are the players that are checking to you capable of a check-raise. I have played with people for a long time whom I have never seen use a check-raise. Also, if you are heads up it is pretty rare for a player to hit his flush and then go for a check raise, simply because he cant be sure that you will bet again especially with the flush card hitting at the end. obviously this is not always the case but something to think about. Be carefull though, because those who are checking may be passive players who made the flush but are afraid somebody has a bigger flush. But even in this situation you won't get raised. I am curious if anybody has stats as to how often somebody is on a flushdraw in situations were 4,5 or more people see the flop. assuming 2 flush cards on the flop. I believe that if there is little chance that you will get raised, the board isn't bunched together creating straight or two pair possibilities, and you are playing against just a few people, say 3 or less and they check to you go ahead and bet it. hopefully you will be called by a pair with a worse kicker or second pair. | ||
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