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Server Time: 11/20/2009 10:35:46 PM PACIFIC |
 Everybody plays the board..., stdioh, 29. May 2003 10:55 | ||
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| Hopefully, my esteemed colleagues won't see this as an instructional on how to shoot angles, but I want to mention something from last night's session that might serve as instructional. That is, when everybody is playing the board and you are playing the board, state your hand with authority and hope they don't notice. Here's the setup. I'm on the button with JKo and I limp. 5 of us take the flop and it is A88. It checks around and the turn is a 6. Again it checks around. River is another 6 and it check around yet again. Now that river took me from playing a decent shot at winning into playing the board. I figured that it the particular table I was playing, chances were good that everybody was playing the board, however I flipped my cards face up as I checked the river on the button and said, "King high." The small blind also flipped up JK and said, "Chop chop," not realizing that it would be a 4 way chop (one player checked out on the flop - heheh) ... then what I had hoped for happened. The other two players mucked their hands and as the chips moved to myself and the SB the guy who had checked out figured things out. By the time the folders understood what had happened it was too late to do anything - their hands were in the much and the next hand was in the air. The point of this is: I was really giving away no information by showing my cards and by displaying them with confidence other board players who either didn't realize that I was playing the board or didn't realize that they were playing the board. My hand was something that anybody would play the way I did, pretty much. What it did was garner me $12.50 to which I really wasn't entitled. I'll let you all make the call as to whether this is honest play or angle shooting, but I'm including it here as a lesson to newish players: 1) Just because you're playing the board, don't much until you *know* you are beat or there is a bet to you. 2) When playing the board and not afraid about giving information, in this very specific case, the best thing to do is show your hand and hope that the less astute will fold. If I had been a little luckier and the SB had held something worse than KJ I might have taken all $50 that was in the pot. | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., Andrew Wells, 29. May 2003 11:11 | ||
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| No $20 bet on the river from last position? That's okay, I don't steal too much in these spots either. I would have said "two pairs" instead of "king high" though, but it did work. I remember one time heads up after the flop where it got checked like this and the next two cards put four clubs on the board. I had AK (no clubs) and announced my hand "ace", the other player thought I meant ace high flush and mucked before I even showed my hand. I wasn't intending to put him on tilt, but it was too late to rescue what ever it was that beat me. | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., Don Quixote, 29. May 2003 11:21 | ||
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| I will leave it up to your own conscience to decide; but I think you had no idea that this would happen. We all do things like that at the table....just for laughs usually. Now then, where in heck was the dealer in all this? Does he not have a responsibility to award the pot to the winners? I would like to share a story of something similar that happened to me only the 2nd or 3rd time I visited a B&M casino. I had very little Texas Holdem experience and no Omaha. The poker room manager said there was a seat available at the Omaha $3./6. kill game. I said I didnt know how to play Omaha, and she said if you play holdem, you can play Omaha. Yeah, sure! Anyway, I sat down to give it a try. About ten minutes into the game, I didnt know what in heck I had at showdown and was trying to figure it out. The dealer in this case had no obligation to tell me just to turn over my cards; but a player on my immediate right told me to turn them over. A couple of players to his right said dont tell him that. I lost anyway because my low was counterfeited. I knew I didnt want to continue playing at that table with the two players that said, "Don't tell him shit." I may have been stupid as to Omaha, but I had been around enough to know that the other 8 people at that table wanted my money any way they could get it. I left after that hand. I still haven't forgotten the players at the table nor the manager that fed me to the wolves. Thank you Barbara, at Aztar, Evansville, IN, for throwing old Don to the wolves. Poker is a game of deception and is an inherent part of the game......but where does deception stop. Don Quixote on 29. May 2003 10:55 stdioh wrote: > Hopefully, my esteemed colleagues won't see this as an instructional on how to > shoot angles, but I want to mention something from last night's session that > might serve as instructional. That is, when everybody is playing the board and > you are playing the board, state your hand with authority and hope they don't > notice. Here's the setup. > > I'm on the button with JKo and I limp. 5 of us take the flop and it is A88. It > checks around and the turn is a 6. Again it checks around. River is another 6 > and it check around yet again. Now that river took me from playing a decent shot > at winning into playing the board. I figured that it the particular table I was > playing, chances were good that everybody was playing the board, however I > flipped my cards face up as I checked the river on the button and said, "King > high." The small blind also flipped up JK and said, "Chop chop," not realizing > that it would be a 4 way chop (one player checked out on the flop - heheh) ... > then what I had hoped for happened. The other two players mucked their hands and > as the chips moved to myself and the SB the guy who had checked out figured > things out. By the time the folders understood what had happened it was too late > to do anything - their hands were in the much and the next hand was in the > air. > > The point of this is: I was really giving away no information by showing my > cards and by displaying them with confidence other board players who either > didn't realize that I was playing the board or didn't realize that they were > playing the board. My hand was something that anybody would play the way I did, > pretty much. What it did was garner me $12.50 to which I really wasn't entitled. > I'll let you all make the call as to whether this is honest play or angle > shooting, but I'm including it here as a lesson to newish players: > > 1) Just because you're playing the board, don't much until you *know* you are > beat or there is a bet to you. > 2) When playing the board and not afraid about giving information, in this very > specific case, the best thing to do is show your hand and hope that the less > astute will fold. If I had been a little luckier and the SB had held something > worse than KJ I might have taken all $50 that was in the pot. | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., MozMan, 29. May 2003 11:27 | ||
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| >>>Now then, where in heck was the dealer in all this? Does he not have a responsibility to award the pot to the winners? <<< The dealer can't award any of the pot to dead hands. If the players muck, there's nothing he can do. They must turn over and display their cards in order for him to be able to chop the pot for them. -Moz "There is no spoon." | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., TKarrde, 29. May 2003 11:32 | ||
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| Spoon? What happened to life is a dream? | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., SKinner, 29. May 2003 12:13 | ||
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| on 29. May 2003 11:32 TKarrde wrote: > Spoon? What happened to life is a dream? Same thing. | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., MozMan, 29. May 2003 12:13 | ||
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| Ahh, just a different mood today. :) -Moz "There is no spoon." | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., TKarrde, 29. May 2003 12:18 | ||
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| Those sound like they would be quotes from Matrix reloaded. Unfortunately I don't get to make it to the movies very often. | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., MozMan, 29. May 2003 12:29 | ||
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| Close! The first one comes from the Wheel of Time books (Robert Jordan)... the Spoon one comes from the Matrix (1st movie)... -Moz "There is no spoon." | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., stdioh, 29. May 2003 13:17 | ||
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| Yup. When a hand is in the muck, it cannot get paid - period. | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., TKarrde, 29. May 2003 11:31 | ||
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| WHOA!!! You play at Aztar?? Cool. That is where I play. Or have played. Maybe I have even sat at a table with you. But I doubt it since I have only played there three times. But that is 75% of my experience. ;) I do remember Barb. She doesn't seem stupid. I think she WAS feeding you to the wolves. Maybe I'll see ya around Donnie Q! TK | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., shorn, 29. May 2003 11:55 | ||
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| Don- I agree with you. I would have left the game too. You would think that those players (who by your play should most likely have noticed that you had no idea how to play O8) would have done everything possible to keep you there and not jeopardize you getting up and leaving. No offense, but you were the fish at that table and they were the sharks. When you got up, so did any potential profit from you. My policy is to try and always be super nice and helpful to new players so that they at least have a nice time while they are (generally) losing. Steve | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., Don Quixote, 29. May 2003 12:44 | ||
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| shorn, you hit the nail right straight on the head. I equate their stupidity to the players that belittle other players for making dumb plays. Nice play.....and move on, hoping the player continues to make those "nice plays." The opposing players at Aztar drove me off just like belittleing fishies will make them play more correctly. Thanks for pointing this out. There is a big difference in saying, "Nice play", and "dont tell him shit." Don Quixote on 29. May 2003 11:55 shorn wrote: > Don- > > I agree with you. I would have left the game too. You would think that those players > (who by your play should most likely have noticed that you had no idea how to play O8) > would have done everything possible to keep you there and not jeopardize you getting up > and leaving. No offense, but you were the fish at that table and they were the sharks. > When you got up, so did any potential profit from you. > > My policy is to try and always be super nice and helpful to new players so that they at > least have a nice time while they are (generally) losing. > > Steve | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., shorn, 29. May 2003 13:15 | ||
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| A MONSTER difference. Kill them with kindness...then they will still like you when you have their $$, and are much more likely to come again. on 29. May 2003 12:44 Don Quixote wrote: > > shorn, you hit the nail right straight on the head. I equate their stupidity to the players > that belittle other players for making dumb plays. Nice play.....and move on, hoping the > player continues to make those "nice plays." The opposing players at Aztar drove me off just > like belittleing fishies will make them play more correctly. > > Thanks for pointing this out. There is a big difference in saying, "Nice play", and "dont > tell him shit." > > Don Quixote > | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., stdioh, 29. May 2003 13:24 | ||
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| Exactly. Most fish play poker because it is fun and they are spending their money on entertainment. As a winning player, I see myself as an entertainer - an embassador to the casino. I want them to have a good time and hurry back. They are my bread and butter. | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., stdioh, 29. May 2003 13:22 | ||
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| I can't stand it when somebody at the table bitches me out for "educating the table" when I'm helping a complete beginner to get comfortable. When you say things to him like, "If you have a pair or better on the flop, you have a shot at winning - if you don't have a pair you should probably fold," you're helping to rob him. You want him to think that he has SOME information on how to play so that he goes broke just a little bit slower. The worst I've seen is when a new guy came over from carribean stud or whatever with about $1K in mixed denominations and sat at the 10-20. He was asking me how to play and I gave him the one pair or better spiel. Then the player to my right looked over and said something like, "Don't tell him how to play! I want his money." To him..."Hey, don't listen to anything, just play the way you want to. Any two cards can win." The guy, not a complete nimrod, got up and left with his $1000, 1/9 of which had my name on it. Long and short of it is, don't educate the fish, but be nice to the giant whales and never berate another player for educating a fish - it'll only make the fish listen. | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., shorn, 29. May 2003 11:46 | ||
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| I have to say that I think this is somewhat unethical and (depending on the table and the players) may cost you $$ in the long run. If the table had some fish on it (which it seems you look for in your selection), and they got miffed when this happenend, they could get up and leave and a lot more than $12.50 potentially goes away. Now, I am not saying that it is your fault that the others mucked. Cardinal rule #1 and #2 is always protect your cards and KNOW if your hand is a loser before releasing them, so I have no sympathy for those that did that. However, this goes into the same kind of category as betting/raising out of turn on purpose to try and influence the actions of others. Anyway, maybe I am being too harsh or naive here, but I just think that type of play is beneath you knowing the quality of your play by the posts that you have put up. | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., stdioh, 29. May 2003 13:25 | ||
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| Fair enough. I think that you're right in that it is morally flexible. I'd say that intentionally betting out of turn is a black and white angle, whereas this is more of a grey area. I'm not doing anything I'm not supposed to do or announcing my hand as being better than it is, but I am intending to deceive, so by that standard it would be an angle. I guess we all draw our own lines and I draw mine just after this. | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., shorn, 29. May 2003 13:29 | ||
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| OK, I will concede it is grayer than betting out of turn. But, I think we agree (as you pointed out in your other responses) that the fish are where we make our living and anything we can do to keep them happy (and thinning) is optimal policy. | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., MozMan, 29. May 2003 13:32 | ||
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| >>>but I am intending to deceive, so by that standard it would be an angle<<< I don't agree. Poker is all about deception; deception is an inherent part of the game. There's no angle, nothing unethical about it. In the end, it is balanced by the showdown (when it happens) and if a fish doesn't catch your deception at the showdown, then you've out-played him. Pure and simple. -Moz "There is no spoon." | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., shorn, 29. May 2003 13:39 | ||
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| The angle part comes in when you are intentionally trying to make the other guy muck when at the showdown (at least where I play) it is "cards speak". Now again, if you say King High with no intention of trying to represent that as a playable hand, then that is a different story. However, it is the intentional part of this that I find unethical. I think we have to agree to disagree here. Bottom line for me though is if I am the shark in a game, then I want the table laughing it up all the time and I won't risk alienating not only the player who was duped but everyone else too just for a 1 BB profit. There is potentially much much more at stake. | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., stdioh, 29. May 2003 13:52 | ||
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| Well of course when somebody figured it out, I appeared just as surprised as the rest of them. Oh! I *WAS* playing the board. Wow. :) | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., noiseboy, 29. May 2003 13:00 | ||
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| Nope, not an angle shoot, nor is it unethical. If somebody mucks their winning hand, the hand is dead and they have nobody but themselves to blame. It's like when you keep raising even though you are 99% sure of a split, because there is always a small chance that your opponent has misread the board. | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., shorn, 29. May 2003 13:06 | ||
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| Like I said, the fault in the mucking lies with the players. BUT, to INTENTIONALLY try to induce poor players to muck their hand in a split pot is unethical and stupid IMHO. Stdioh even stated that he was trying to get them to muck before noticing the board was higher than his hand. You are biting the hand that feeds you 99% of the time when you do something like that. In fact, I would have most likely offered the $12.50 back to the other players to MAKE SURE that they didn't get up and leave. Only fish are going to muck to that board when someone says "King High". And I for one want fish to stay around and have a good time for 3 or 4 more hours so that the $200 they have in front of them is distributed to the game. | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., stdioh, 29. May 2003 13:28 | ||
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| As for them leaving, it would have been possible, but they weren't that necessary players. One was a player who probably beats the 5-10, but just isn't that good for the 10-20. The other one is a giant calling station and something of a degenerate gambler - you'll never get him to leave until all his money is gone on any session. A I was still pleasant with him of course. But yeah, I can see where you're saying that the $12.50 wouldn't be worth bad feelings and that is true. | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., SKinner, 30. May 2003 07:14 | ||
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| If he didn't break the rules, then I don't think it is unethical. Poker is about money. Period. At least for me. The only real question should be if the move would drive out the fish. –SKinner | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., 4 POKER, 30. May 2003 20:13 | ||
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| I'm having a little difficulty as to when you think you may have made an angleshot. When it was your turn to call your hand, you did. You announced "King High" and that is exactly what you had. Yes, you were playing the board, but that doesn't mean that you have to say, "I'm playing the board". What you did was a part of poker, in fact, it was nothing. I probably would have been more inclined to bet the river so I had the chance at winning the whole pot(and I'm not quite sure as to why you didn't try that move; you had the perfect position to do so and with that board, you were a favorite to make a bet and take it down; but I guess that's not the point right now. I was just surprised that you missed out on that opportunity, that's all, Stdioh). I also read Shorn's post and he had a good argument as well because he DID think that you took an angle shot, and this is a question of morals , scruples and proper ettiquette and I think that is why he was a little upset with your actions. I understand where he is coming from exactly, however, in this particular situation, I don't think that this qualifies as an angle shot. Maybe you yourself stdioh are not quite sure as to what angle shooting really is, or maybe you are leaving something out here; I don't know. I just feel that based on your original post, it doesn't sound like you did anything unethical at all. If I thought that you took even the tiniest of shots than I would tell you as well(I am very against players that act in such poor fashion). But I read your post over and over and I just don't think that you were angleshooting whatsoever. My question to you is, "why do you think that you were angleshooting"? Is it your fault that two players voluntarily mucked their hands? You didn't miscall your holding, what is the problem? As far as any dealer is concerned, once you call your hand and announce King high, the dealer is not supposed to say a word, nothing. He/she is to wait for each player to act(preferably in turn as common courteousy) and then award the pot to the winner/s, period. they're not supposed to say, "he has nothing", or ask a player to turn over his hand either. Each player is responsible for their own hand and only the player can turn their cards over, with no help from the dealer or any of the other opponents as well. I know that when I play Omaha in my cardroom, there has been dozens of times where a dealer would try to award me the pot because he simply was unable to read the board and so was the player involved. Now I could have easily just sat there and said nothing and allowed the dealer to give me a pot that was not due me; but I have never in all my years playing Omaha or any other game for that matter, except a pot that was not rightfully mine. So you see, I am very upfront when it comes to things like that and after being in Vegas for a while let me tell you, some of the players make angleshots that are just not allowed in Atlantic City. For example, When you play in Vegas and it is your turn to call a bet or make a bet, you are actually allowed to come over your cards entirely with the chips in your hand and as long as your chips don't hit the felt you can than take your bet back. Players make this move because they are trying to get information as to whether their opponent is going to call or not. If you see someone come all the way over that imaginary line(over ones cards) with chips in their hand, aren't you going to think that they are going to bet or call a bet?...of course you are. But they routinely do this over and over in Vegas and in my opinion it is nothing more than a cheap angle shot. I know in A.C. that once you pass your cards with chips in your hand it's a bet no matter what. You don't need to touch the felt first. These plays and moves happen all the time and I think that you tied in this particular situation with "angleshooting" and you really shouldn't have, stdioh. It was a part of the game and not a cheap or sleezy move either... just part of the game. Move on. If I thought that you were making an attempt to angle shoot somebody, I would tell you, but the way you described the story it just sounds to me that you just felt bad about the two players who mucked their hands and nothing more. Maybe they were nice guys or they were losing or something and your conscience got to you but that is part of being human. You know what? This just occured to me. Maybe because these two players were entitled to split the pot with you had they turned over their cards bothered you. You felt that they SHOULD have gotten their share because, afterall, they held the same thing that you did. And maybe that is why in your head you feel guilty and bad. But don't. Because if they had turned over their own hand, they would have been entitled to a portion of the pot but that is a very big IF. You are not the poker police and it is not your job to ask other players what they are holding so they don't accidentally muck their hands. You are there to win and as long as you play a clean and honest game and are as polite and/or civil as you can be, than that is all you can concern yourself with and let the actions and/or mistakes by the other players not interfere with your game and your honest decision making. {Maybe you should go over it again and try to think as to why you felt so badly, I think I am right on this one here... you can not be responsible for the mistaskes made by others}. Thanks for the honest post. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., Andrew Wells, 1. Jun 2003 06:57 | ||
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| He did miscall his hand. If he said, "I have a king" instead of "king high" there would be no gray area. It was also done with the intention of maybe getting someone brain dead to fold. I have no problem with this sort of trickery as long as this is not the lowest limit in the card room. From previous posts, we know that they also spread 5-10. I would just consider it bad form if he did this in low limit where there are perhaps some players new to the game. In middle limit your job is to take the money, not entertain folks. | ||
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| Re: Everybody plays the board..., shorn, 2. Jun 2003 05:41 | ||
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| So the limit should determine how ethically you play?? That sounds like a classic case of "situation ethics" to me. That is the same as modifying your poker strategy because the limits are different (meaning playing much looser at 1-2 than you would at 10-20 for no other reason except the amount of $$ involved). I think we have beaten this horse to death and we can agree to disagree. Again, my reasoning behind why it was an angle shoot is because of stdioh's INTENT to try and get others to fold. It is their fault that they mucked without turning their cards over no question. BTW, as 4 POKER points out, I would have probably bet the river too... | ||
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