UPF - Tonight's WPT in LA Commerce

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Tonight's WPT in LA Commerce, Easy E, 28. May 2003 20:51
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How could Gus NOT bet his 73d on the turn or river with a board of 9A982, after raising pre-flop and betting the flop? Checking it down for image, without having to risk chips? And how could Andy not raise or bet with TT (I think) at any time- letting Gus bluff off chips? A planned strategy to let Gus be aggressive early in the tournament? I wasn't going to waste my time with Vince's comments any more, but a couple jumped out at me. First one, about Bob Stupak- "(he) practically built Las Vegas". Vince, are you KIDDING me? Influential, yes. Trend-setting? Definately. Study your history, Vince.... Bob Stupak made a bold all-in move early with J7h.... and the quote "To attack... is to win. To defend... is to lose" was a great quote! (Any Sun Tzu fans out there? Was this stolen or paraphrased?) Andy, why did you keep putting your head down and hiding your eyes? Were you trying to block tells? Sure seemed to me that you did it when you weren't sure about your hand (when overcards were on the board). I noticed that, in the shot of the earlier rounds, with Gus to your right, you were doing it there as well... care to explain? Again with the call only, Andy, with A8 against Gus' turn bet of the board 859T..... is this a general strategy of letting Gus bluff out? Put the head down again with the T36K bet by Gus.... not sure if this is a tell or not (see above) Was Gus' early play allowing him to set up Andy into checking all of the time? Daniel, as chip leader, calls with ATh against David Pham's raise... and then DOESN'T raise David's flop bet when KhAc9c comes? Would anyone take Bob Stupak's "I just have Jacks" comment as anything but a sign of a) weakness and b) I'm not calling? I'm sure he was fishing for a reaction, but isn't that a little TOO obvious? Steve? is short-stacked, not playing much of anything. Gus raises, Bob reraises all-in and Andy overcalls. Steve agonizes over AJd. Would anyone else even THINK about calling in this situation with AJsuited, for only a portion of the main pot vs. getting busted out? I would have mucked those cards faster than lightning... would that be a mistake? A call Daniel made with 33 confused me. I can see calling Gus on the river, but the turn call when the board is Q696 (can't remember if a 2-flush was out there as well)... huh? Andy AGAIN just calling Gus' action. No river bet, when Gus starts checking and the last cards are T and Q? Andy, were you THAT afraid of Gus? The all-in jump-up on the turn, when the Queen came out, by Steve was a REALLY poor move. Daniel went out on Gus' trips bet (after Gus checked the flop) because of Steve's "announcement" that he had a Queen, I'm convinced. Daniel's call of Gus' bet on the T26 rainbow flop, holding 54d, seemed weak.. Can't remember the chip positions.... I know Gus was being overly aggressive, but a gutshot seemed to be a bad call here. Andy, not looking down at the board (but off into space) against Gus, then bet the turn, then checking your card when the Queen caught you, before betting the river.... didn't you blow any chance at a call here? Shana- I REALLY wish they'd give her some more meaty material, or something to indicate whether she's just eye candy or she has a poker brain behind the looks. She still seems to come across as polished and professional, but the puff pieces are TOO puffy! Maybe I'm identifying or something, but I really wish we could find out whether she should be involved or not. I still can't tell. I noticed Daniel lost the sunglass usage when he had a lot of chips, then went back to them when Gus sucked out on him later.... interesting. NICE move by Andy to checkraise Daniel with J4h on the 899 flop. But against Gus, he seems overly cautious- the AQ hand with the KJJx on the board was BEGGING for a bet somewhere, with Gus checking his understraight draw. Andy, what was your logic against Gus? Sure seemed fearful/tentative. And it cost you later. WHY exactly did you call Gus' T140K bet, after he bet his T3 two pair on the turn? You'd seen his three treys on an earlier hand.. and you didn't have top pair (i think you had second pair). Shortly? thereafter, you called Gus all-in with A8off. Were you expecting Gus to attack your blind? Were you steaming about the full house above? You had the better hand, I admit, but I wonder if you made a mistake calling all-in? Also, since you were there, Andy, did it seem Daniel started playing more cautiously, especially when you were stung by the full house hand, in order to insure that he got to the WPT Championship? He knew that Gus couldn't win the token... Daniel- didn't you learn from Andy's mistake? DON'T look at your cards and bet T25K!!! I knew Gus was folding before the camera even switched! Bet more, don't check cards, you probably? would have been looked up by Gus. Gus' reraise of T100K with A6c, over Daniel's raise to T50K, was interesting- more a function of his chip position? VVP quote, paraphrased- "If you see a player playing with his chips (ala Gus), don't walk- RUN out of the casino, he's going to take all of your money".... Yeah, I think I read that in Caro's "Book of Tells". Value was at least $12,500 on THAT tell...... (right!) Daniel CHECKS his AJ on a turn of 98cATc??? You were punished by the poker gods because of that, with the 6 on the river making Gus two pair. The glasses came off after that- a sign that you were defeated? Seemed like Daniel was steaming about the 6 when he kept calling Gus' pocket Kings, with only a pair of 4's (one on board, one in hand)..... and then to go all-in with QToff, for ~T200K, seemed like you made a bad decision (any thoughts on this, anyone?). And the poker gods punished you AGAIN, giving you hope with the T... and then bringing the Jack to bust you. Very interesting show, very entertaining. And my favorite part? A supremely ironical comment (with one insert by me) by VVP- "If you can't spot the sucker at the (broadcasting) table, you're it!" Take those words to heart, Vince....
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Re: Tonight's WPT in LA Commerce, Big_Slick, 28. May 2003 21:19
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Did anyone notice the shaking hands? Particularly Bob and Gus?
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Re: Tonight's WPT in LA Commerce, Bond18, 28. May 2003 21:39
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Steves little shout on the queen was something else. With two guys left playing the hand i really think that was in bad taste, but hey it cracked me up. I think your absolutely right about the all in Q 10 decesion, he wasn't exactly a pauper at that point, he could of waited for a better hand. I also agree with your point on the no raise with the AJ, granted he was concerned with Gus having AQ AK or already having made two pair, but he knew Gus had been playing all kind of garbage and should of raised that turn. Overall i want to comment im very impressed with the ultra aggressive but thoughtful play by Gus, who seems to know exaclty when to change gears.
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Gus put on a clinic, BigDMcGee, 28. May 2003 22:58
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Gus was a textbook ( or perhaps anti textbook) player tonight in the world poker tour. He would raise, and sometimes call, with any reasonable hand, comfortable in the fact that he could out play any person there. You have to be a tremendous card reader to be able to pull that off. And his big bluffing early on at the table set up his future action perfectly. He got pham to all in against his raise with ace eight when he had ace queen, got his full house and two pair paid off for very large end bets that wouldn't have been called if he hadn't been such an action player. I think in general the players played too passivly against the him, particularlly the big stacks of andy and daniel. Rarly was he ever played back at. I think Daniel's 33 call down was truly awful. If he thought he was bluffing, he should have raised him out. Three's is such a fragile hand that even if your opponnent is pure bluffing, he can always accidently pair up. In general, Gus's aggressive play caused so much confusion that people made huge mistakes against him, which is what you're tring to accomplish when you play like that. I didn't see the first episode of the WPT, but Gus's play has made him one of my favorites. It is his seemingly manaical play that won him that tourniment. Granted, that kind of play has a greater variance than players like Coultier... but Gus was playing to win the tourniment, not place.. completely fearlessly.. Go Gus!!!
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Re: Gus put on a clinic, shorn, 29. May 2003 04:41
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I think Daniel had a stone read on Gus in the 3's hand. Rewind your tape and watch how Gus bets/plays with his chips in certain hands. On that hand, Daniel was watching Gus's hands and not his face. Granted, later on Gus changed geards beautifully and steamrolled everyone. But, let's face it...the deck ran him over like a Mack truck too.
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Re: Gus put on a clinic, Easy E, 29. May 2003 06:01
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part of the problem that I saw was, they let it get to the point where he could catch the deck with some of his trash (and good cards) and get paid off. Easy to say (hey, bad pun!) knowing their cards and NOT seeing the full table play, or previous days, but the game could have been changed drastically with more aggression by Andy and Daniel..... unless both of them DID have tells that a) they caught onto or b) that Gus was setting them up with.....
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Re: Gus / clinic, timmer, 29. May 2003 08:26
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It seems to me Andy, A vastly superior card player, was waiting for an opportunity to take Gus off for a huge pile of chips. When He did get the opportunity Gus sucked out. It happened twice on the TV last night and many many times in the inaugural WTP tourney at the Bellagio (which I attended live) Personally I think Gus wont last long as a final finisher because of his televised performances. People will start looking him up much more often. Especially in a tourney where the chip stacks are really really deep. He plays (and Incidently) looks like he doesnt have that much longer to live. I know a few medical personel who deal with the critically ill and they agree whe doesnt look at all good. Of course this is pure conjecture on these peoples part and should be taken as such. But hes won a million and thats 40% of the way to moneymakers biggest win.
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Re: Gus / clinic, Big_Slick, 29. May 2003 09:45
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He did always seem to get the card he needed at the right time. Although in poker, you make your own breaks, I think his lucky draws made him look like a better player than he really is (he is still a great player). One of the idiot commentators said this win qualifies him as a legend. Um... not quite.
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Re: Tonight's WPT in LA Commerce, Easy E, 29. May 2003 05:58
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I think Bob Stupak's hands always shake like that- he had a bad motorcycle accident a number of years ago
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Re: Tonight's WPT in LA Commerce, timmer, 29. May 2003 08:32
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The polish Maverick mas more heart than all of those kids combined. I saw him playing NLLB (no Limit Low ball single draw)with 100 ante and 200/400 at the horseshoe the other day. his was half in the bag and he was r00ling the table for about 50G's I seen him take another guy off for about 10G's. with a T9 it was a delight to watch him play. he can coffeehouse with the best of them and is well known for his Arm. Andy and the arm were the two that should of been there but as we all know with NLHE the only limit is your luck.
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Re: WPT in LA Commerce: Is there a DVD available?, flintsword, 29. May 2003 09:02
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Easy E, your post has enough material to keep me guessing for a week. After that detail, my question is obvious: where can I get a DVD of that show? I missed the show and regret it. Thanks for taking the time to "mine" the action. flintsword
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Re: WPT in LA Commerce: Is there a DVD available?, Easy E, 29. May 2003 11:06
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Glad to serve a purpose. Scottro also did a long commentary (on the Unofficial WPT site hosted by Andy Bloch- check it out) on the show. Don't know where you can find DVDs. The official WPT website FINALLY opened their store, but they only have shirts and a hat so far.
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Re: Tonight's WPT in LA Commerce, stdioh, 29. May 2003 10:03
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Bob Stupak did practically build Vegas. He was a master of publicity and managed to make a casino by buying cheap land in the middle of a bunch of nudie bars and sleezeball joints, then advertising that the games were easy to beat because the place was run by a Polak. He got headlines that he paid a man $1,000,000 to jump off the roof (and of course he charged the guy $975,000 to land safely) and he called Amarillo Slim a queer and then asked him outright to file a defamation lawsuit for the publicity. The guy is a genious. Now he's a bad bad poker player, but that's another matter. He's definitely on the short list of men who made Vegas what it is today ... which is either a very good thing or a very bad thing.
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Re: Tonight's WPT in LA Commerce, Easy E, 29. May 2003 11:09
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on 29. May 2003 10:03 stdioh wrote: > Bob Stupak did practically build Vegas. He was a master of publicity and managed to > make a casino by buying cheap land in the middle of a bunch of nudie bars and > sleezeball joints, .... He's definitely on the short list of men who made Vegas what it is > today ... which is either a very good thing or a very bad thing. I agree strongly with everything but the first sentence. I think he had a HUGE influence on Vegas marketing and promotions, among other things, but I don't think he "built" Vegas. I actually went to his Vegas World, when it was still V.W. on one of the promotions. I didn't stay there (thank the gods) but I used some of his promotional stuff to play (didn't do well, as I remember, but that was years ago).
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Daniel Played Poorly, mkpoker, 29. May 2003 11:31
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First, I preface by saying that young Daniel is obviously a good player who could probably kick my butt 99 times out of 100, but.... I thought he played very poorly at the final table, making two big mistakes consistently: 1. He kept calling when he should have raised. Everything I've learned about NLHE says (almost) always fold or raise. When his opponents raised, Daniel kept calling. That meant more cards, and more opportunities for bad beats. He wasn't nearly aggressive enough, especially against Gus. 2. He gave away too many free cards. With hands like AJ heads up, I thought he should be betting much more. The checking gave Gus opportunities to pick up pairs and draws all night, including on the big hand, where (if memory serves), Daniel's AJ lost to Gus' A8 when an 8 came on the river, after an A had come on the flop. With only very remote chances at a flush or straight on the river, I would have bet it hard. Do others agree?
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Re: Daniel Played Poorly, shorn, 29. May 2003 11:50
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The big hand, Gus held A6s and a 6 came, but I do agree that he was too passive. I am no expert at NL by any means and couldn't hold any of those guys jocks, but I think that calling away your chips is a losing proposition in most cases (unless you have the unbeatable nuts...then I let Gus bet for me all day). That hand especially, he should have raised the flop to try and force Gus out of the hand. By the turn, Gus had top pair and a 4 flush so he very well may have called if Daniel raised there (unless he went all-in).
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Re: Daniel Played Poorly, Jav, 29. May 2003 13:29
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I agree that he played that hand very poorly, but it's a lot more obvious to us when we can see both players hole cards. But if you hold AJ heads up and flop the A, you had better be aggressive. If I remember correctly, Gus was betting and Daniel was just calling until the turn. Then Gus checked, and so did Daniel. There is no way Daniel should have checked on the turn, he should have taken the pot right then.
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Re: Daniel Played Poorly, shorn, 29. May 2003 13:32
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Absolutely. The check on the turn was a disaster with $250k or something like that in the pot. Then he called another $100k on the river. If you are going to check the turn, then you have to muck the river to that kind of bet. I guess he just thought that Gus was stone cold bluffing or that his Ace was weaker. Now that I think about it, if he had bet the turn there and Gus mucked, he might have won the damn thing...so, that's what Sklansky means when he talks about "mathematical catastrophe's"...hmmm....
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Re: Daniel Played Poorly, BigDMcGee, 29. May 2003 18:51
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Gus did not bet the flop on that hand, he checked it.. and made a very relunctant call... From all the time that it was taking him to call, Daniel had to put him on ace little, or something like that, and pushed a huge, pot sized bet on the turn, not checking... I think Gus's style of play was really confusing to him... The Ten came on the turn. Surely if Gus had a Ten kicker, he would have bet the flop, or at least taken less time and effort to call.. At anyrate, all of this is in hindsite. At any rate, I saw no evidence that Andy was "vastly the superior player". Andy played very solid, but he seemed befuddled by gus.. waiting to trap him with a big hand, meanwhile gus was able to get his hands paid off. And remember,
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