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Server Time: 2/13/2012 12:41:10 AM PACIFIC |
 How to provoke an opponent to fold, Yeoda, 28. May 2003 15:57 | ||
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| Played in AC this weekend, and I think I've improved my techniques to get players to call (and sometimes raise) me when I'm sitting on a monster hand. What I can't do is get players to fold. I can do it sometimes (by raising or check raising), but most of the time I can't. I usually try to do this when sitting on a borderline hand/expect my opponent is on a borderline hand and I want to represent a monster. Any techniques? If I talk to the player, no matter what I say, it typically seems to trigger a call reflex. | ||
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| Re: How to provoke an opponent to fold, Banning, 28. May 2003 16:21 | ||
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| good question. Mike Caro says a few things that I will share with you because I don't have any information of my own...but wish to try to contribute. First off, MC says that most players (especially at low limit) go to a table wanting to play, thus most players want to call. Thus doing anything will trigger their calling reflex. In my extensive internet perusing I also read about this, which may or may not have been Mike Caro: all players have a fault, some players fold too much, some raise too much, and some call too much. You as a player need to exploit your opponents weakness. Thus if you know player A folds too much you should raise him with marginal hands hoping to make him fold his marginal holdings. Players that call too much, this approach will not work. Take advantage of a players weakness by making them do whatever they do MORE. Thus a player who folds too much is much easier to encourage to fold then it is to encourage him to call more. Maybe if you raise, and he folds, and you don't have to show down say something like, "good idea man" afterwards so that in his mind he was smart to have folded...this will make him more likely to fold in the future cuz he will remember that other time when he folded and saved himself pretend money. Here is another thingie you could try. Here is another idea I just had. You need to know if your opponent is advanced or not. Standard tells say that a bluffer is motionless and someone with a good hand is genuinely happy looking. Bluffers don't move cuz their afraid that anything they do will trigger a calling reflex. If your playing against a shitty player he is probably a calling station anyhow and so don't even worry cuz he will call you all the way no matter what you do almost. But a decent player...one who is aware of the tells but isn't super good with them you could maybe trick by doing the opposite tell. And a pro player...I think your basically screwed cuz he will see right through you. That is what I thought of upon reading your article but realize that I ain't no pro guy so my ideas are purely speculative and thought inspiring. | ||
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| Re: How to provoke an opponent to fold, flintsword, 29. May 2003 09:23 | ||
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| There was a good thread on this a month back where I think we discussed how big a bet needs to be to cause players with non-premium hands to fold. I got a lot of responses and put what 4 POKER and stdioh (and others) had to say into practice on my vacation. The size of the bet is a key element in making someone decide to fold or decide to call. The bet you make needs to also relate to the size of the "potential folder's" stack. The general consensus seemed to be three BB as a raise, but if your "potential folder" is the top stack at the table, he may be able to indulge your curiosity, so a more aggressive strategy is called for, so the "potential folder" understands that there "is" a risk involved by calling. There is also the gambit where a "potential folder" will just reraise you if your table image is too loose or if you have unluckily raised into his QQ or KK, both of these situations exist. I reraised recently a player that was playing over sixty percent of all hands like this, using the analysis Paul Samuels expounded on his article on calculating threshold hands based on the percentage of times a player enters the game (http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/samuel15.htm). I had a good, but not great hand, and decided his must be worse so I reraised him, and he folded. I have to give kudos to Paul Samuels here for his superb articles, which you can track down at http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archives/index.htm along with lists of all the other articles at pokerpages. Warning: some of those articles are going to improve your poker! flintsword | ||
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| Re: How to provoke an opponent to fold, Big_Slick, 29. May 2003 09:48 | ||
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| Although it's an illegal play in most card rooms and casinos, a loaded Smith and Wesson works wonders. | ||
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| Re: How to provoke an opponent to fold, stdioh, 29. May 2003 10:00 | ||
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| You might consider an anti-hollywood against an advanced player. Generally, when a fish is on a monster, he'll do an "oh well, I may as well bet even though my hand is so bad" manoevre ... you might try doing this when you have garbage and want to bluff, as an astute player might recognize the tell and figure he's boned. Another tell of this variety you might try to affect is watching TV after you bet when your opponent is in the tank. Look away and stay very still. That is another classic sign of a fish on a monster. | ||
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| Re: How to provoke an opponent to fold, flintsword, 30. May 2003 10:24 | ||
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| "A fish on a monster" ... gazing at the TV staying relatively motionless is a great tell that I have used to save myself against any variety of hands. I should add that when there are a few players in the hand, your fold on this tell has the advantage of seeing the monster played out to conclusion, which is great entertainment as well as instructive about the players that stayed in ... :) How they handle the loss? Do they go on tilt after? How severely? What kind of hand they pushed to the end? flintsword | ||
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| Re: How to provoke an opponent to fold, 4 POKER, 30. May 2003 02:32 | ||
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| I don't think that you can PROVOKE a player to fold if he/she has a reasonable and justified reason for continuing with their hand and/or draw. What you first have to consider is who is in the hand with you, what type of player? All those typical "I have nothing so call me" moves and those "I have a monster, you better fold" move, are so common and are really quite transparent to MOST players(even the average player), so may I suggest that you just bet your hand the same way when you have a monster as to opposed to when you are trying to bluff as well. Try saving the theatrics for another time. If players notice that you are capable of bluffing or acting really weak when you are strong, than you might be pissing them off just a wee bit and this may also cause them to chase you down when you think that they should have folded. If you are playing against just one opponent and they are an astute poker player, if they have a chance at winning the hand than believe me, they will. What I mean by that exactly is this... Say in your mind that you think that YOU are the one that is trying to represent the hand because you have been betting it all the way. Well an astute and experienced poker player may very well know exactly where they stand in this hand but figure that the most money they can extract from YOU would be to just check and call. Have you ever considered that possibility? As far as playing a hand against a calling station, well forget about trying to get them to fold... that is why they are called "calling" stations! They are there for us to profit from when we truly do hold a good hand and will pay us off all the time; but they will not fold even the weakest of hands and/or draws if they think they may have a chance to win, so don't try any tricky moves with a hand that went south. Play very straightfoward against these types and don't miss any bets either(don't go for a check-raise), because all they do is check and call. I'd also like to ask you if maybe you were trying this move too often...could that be the case here? I have been very successful in getting my opponents to fold but believe you me, I only try this play every once in awhile during the session and I pick my spot carefully. If you are trying this over and over than maybe you are playing just a little bit too loose, maybe you are playing too many hands and can't seem to let go of them after the flop so you chose to bet them instead of check fold?...Maybe?..Just think about it; I could be wrong here, and if i am, so what. But if there lies even a little truth to what I am saying, than you will absorb that and make any needed adjustments...and that is what makes us grow and become stronger and better players. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: How to provoke an opponent to fold, Yeoda, 30. May 2003 06:53 | ||
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| Thanks for the feedback. However I was just looking for info on the one scenario, my borderline against their borderline and trying to avoid a showdown and win it on the spot... I'm not talking about being slow played by a pro. Just trying to gather one more trick up my sleeve to pull out to clear some extra profit. | ||
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| Re: How to provoke an opponent to fold, stdioh, 30. May 2003 10:10 | ||
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| I agree that most players will see through the theatrics, but occasionally you can pull something out and make it work. I generally will try to induce a river call or a river fold once every 30 hours of play or less. It doesn't need to work often to give it a try once in a while. | ||
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