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Server Time: 11/20/2009 10:30:20 PM PACIFIC |
 Sit and Go Strategy, shorn, 28. May 2003 05:56 | ||
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| I am trying to move myself into tournament play after having focused on ring play for most of my playing. I seem to have a good case of "ringplayeritis" however, as I most often place 4th or 5th in the small buy-in NL HE events. I know a lot of players out here make a ton of $$ in these events and I was just looking for a few pointers on what appropriate strategy is as I think i am playing too tight until the point where I have to get lucky to stay in. Any thoughts are appreciated. Thanks, Steve | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, JLenart, 28. May 2003 06:41 | ||
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| First and foremost play only premium hands early. You'll find a lot of people playing any two suited cards from any position and winning hands. Don't get sucked into this bad style of play. I played in one sit and go where I only played aa down to JJ and any AK . Needless to say I folded a lot. However by using this strategy, 6 of the other 10 players busted out well before I did. At this point I changed my strategy, loosened up a bit and started to use some more subtle moves that would have been lost on the players with less skill. I ended up winning the sit and go. You have to be careful with this. Like everything in poker tyhings are very situational. Good luck. | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, shorn, 28. May 2003 06:58 | ||
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| So, play really tight early until either the blinds get to the point where too much of your stack is being committed or you are close enough to the $$ that taking some chances in which you hope to double through will get you over the hump? Thanks for the advice. Steve | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, JLenart, 28. May 2003 07:01 | ||
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| Like I said, it's very situational. That was on strategy I tried and that time it worked. | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, Paul Stine, 28. May 2003 07:30 | ||
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| on 28. May 2003 05:56 shorn wrote: > I am trying to move myself into tournament play after having focused on ring > play for most of my playing. I seem to have a good case of "ringplayeritis" > however, as I most often place 4th or 5th in the small buy-in NL HE events. > > I know a lot of players out here make a ton of $$ in these events and I was > just looking for a few pointers on what appropriate strategy is as I think i am > playing too tight until the point where I have to get lucky to stay in. > > Any thoughts are appreciated. > > Thanks, > > Steve Like the other respondents have said, "play tight." What they haven't said is that when you play this way you have to be ready to accept being bounced out of almost every tournament by someone hitting a two or three out draw on the river. This is an inevitable fact of tight tournament play. This probably cannot be understated. The rest of the time you will have to push in your tiny stack with a marginal hand and get shown a much better one that will hold up. Occasionally you may place in the money. Paul Stine College Station, TX | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, TKarrde, 28. May 2003 07:44 | ||
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| I have had good luck with the Sit and Gos. Just won one last night. I have placed 1st 4 times, 2nd 4 times, and 3rd 4 times out of about 15 or 16 attempts. Everyone says to play tight but I'm not sure I agree. I usually play a bit looser pre-flop while the blinds are cheaper and then play very very tight post flop. I think by seeing a lot of flops you increase your chances of hitting a good hand and taking an early lead. Taking an early lead is important as you can push others around with your stack of chips (to a point). Maybe this style just works well for me. Hard to say. But I have done the same thing in full 400 player tournaments and the same strategy has worked. Believe me I wouldn't bet big unless I knew I had the best hand, but early on everyone is usually a little tense and there is very little preflop raising and you can get to see the flop for a small bet. In a tourney it is always worth it to see a marginal hand for a small bet. You aren't worried about making money like on a ring game but hitting a big hand. Just my inexperienced opinions. TK | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, JLenart, 28. May 2003 07:59 | ||
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| This is another strtaegy I've played with some success. Once you build a large enough stack early on, just hunker down and wait for the best cards. | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, shorn, 28. May 2003 08:06 | ||
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| This sounds like a good way to go (and your results are pretty good...cashing in 12 out of 16!). One question though...at what level (blinds in relation to stack size) do you become more conservative pre-flop? Is there some formula by which you go? Say if I have a stack of 20 BB's, can/should I still be looser pre-flop? Or, if I have 60 BB's then I am likely the chip leader or close to it, so i should hunker down? My guess is that it is a "feel" thing and that you good tourny players don't have a set range. Me, well let's just say I am a type A "anal" guy, so i would like to have a range if that is appropriate. Again, thanks for the help. | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, TKarrde, 28. May 2003 08:26 | ||
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| Wish I could give a range but never thought of it. I'll try... I start getting desperate when the chips are around 300 (starting with 1000) and the blinds are 30-60 or higher. I don't necessarily hunker down. I still put in quite a few shots. Once I am on the chip lead I like to be aggressive. Most people who are running low on chips will fold good hands rather than take a chance and lose all or most of their stack. But then again, when I am the chip lead I don't want to take any undue chances either. But if I were to hunker down it would be with about 1/4 the chips on the table for a 10 player that paid 3. But you gotta stay in it to keep at that chip level. But last night, for instance, I was up to T2200 rather quickly. But I kept pressing. Had a really good but not great hand. Went all-in and was back down to T1000. But then I went back up to T3000 in no time. I guess I need to pay attention to what I do. Last night was interesting as I had well over T5000 with three other guys in. I knew they were playing tight to just try and make the money (top 3). So I was absolutely killing them raising and reraising preflop. No one wanted to take any chances. By the time it got heads up I had about T9000. The guy actually doubled up on me twice to over T4000. then I got pocket 5's to his pocket 3's. Didn't matter that the river was a 3 with three 10's on the board. Whew. I was sweating that one. TK | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, Pkrrookie, 29. May 2003 07:00 | ||
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| I've done well in Paradise sit and goes, but am still learning NLHE. I tend to play fairly tight early on (but not overly so) unless I'm in position. If you can see the flop cheap and you have or bought the button, then you can play some drawing hands. I realize you want to avoid draws in NL, but if you're getting an overlay in position, suited Aces and connectors are great hands for doubling through, at leas in my experience. TK hit on a very valuable idea. When there's 4 people left, you need to be agressive. This works for me because of my relatively tight early and middle position play up to that point (especially if a couple of the people left are decent). GL | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, Andrew Wells, 28. May 2003 17:07 | ||
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| I play them this way too, and agree with TKarrde's approach. My cutoff for fishing around and trying to connect with a big hand is generally the beginning of the third level. | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, shorn, 28. May 2003 08:22 | ||
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| I have copied and printed this too. Always good to mix up the strategy. Thanks, Steve | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, Wren, 28. May 2003 08:10 | ||
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| Yes, you should play tight in the sit n gos, especially in the early stages, but, if you restrict your playing hands to AA-JJ and AK then you're going to be mucking preflop somewhere between 90-95% of the time. The blinds increase every 10-15 hands, so, using this strategy, you are going to be playing about one hand per blind round. Playing - not necessarily winning. At this rate, you are going to be hardpressed to keep your stack at or above the average stack, which is where you would like to be. I'd recommend playing just slightly tighter than in a ring game. When the blinds are small, I like to take the Tom McEvoy approach and play any pair as long as there is no raise. Then you simply apply the "fit or fold" strategy on the flop. Generally throw away hands like suited connectors and suited aces, unless you are in very good position (button or cutoff), a few other players are in, and the table isn't very aggressive (so if you flop a good draw, you'll likely be able to take free or cheap cards off). Position is oh-so-important in these tournaments. In early position, play only AK, AQs, and medium-big pairs (or all pairs, if you like that strategy). In late position, loosen up to include suited A's, KQ, KJs, AJ, AT, etc etc. depending on table texture, action, etc. Of utmost importance is the gap concept. If there is a raise infront of you, you must tighten up dramatically. Many players do not understand or care about this, and will happily call a raise of 4x the BB with a hand like ATs or KQ. If there is a raise ahead of you by a player who's any shade of solid, stick to your AK, AA-JJ, and depending on the player, you might want to get rid of your AKo, JJ and QQ hands. A lot of opportunities arise for picking up pots. For example, you get a free ride in the BB with some random garbage cards. Two limpers have come in. The flop is K83. Checks around. Turn is another 8. From my experience, you'll be able to pick up the pot here (with a half-pot to pot-sized bet) about 80-90% of the time, so go ahead and fire. In bigger tournaments, your opponents will be suspicious and be apt to rebluff, but in these online sit 'n' gos, they'll just fold. On to shorthanded play... It sounds like this may be the area in which you really need some more practise, as you said you bust a lot in 4th or 5th place. In general, you have to loosen up significantly here, otherwise the blinds will eat your stack right down. However, you must also be able to adjust your play depending on your stack size, stack sizes of your opponents, how your opponents have adjusted, etc. etc. The ideal situation is when your opponents are playing very few hands, because they don't want to bust before the money. If you are a medium-big stack, you can pick up a LOT of blinds this way by making small raises. If you are a small stack, go all-in often with decent cards (eg A9, KJ, any pair) until your stack is big enough to make normal raises again. If you are a large stack, raise raise raise; your opponents know that you can easily knock them out and don't want to mess with you. Another good situation is when more than one of your opponents are still throwing their weight around at bubble time. Unless you are a very small stack, it's best to sit back here and only play very good cards, hoping for the other players to kill each other off. Of course, you'll have to try to pick up the occasional pot so you don't blind right down. The worse situation is when all the players left are solid and "take turns" picking up the blinds. You can often win blinds yourself, but your opponents are willing and able to push back at you from time to time. I could probably drone on and on about playing in these situations, but this response has gotten long enough, and I've already most likely put you to sleep ;O) Anyway...I hope I've given you some things to think about, and, as everything goes in poker, you'll get better at these things with experience. Hope to see you at the tables! :O) | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, shorn, 28. May 2003 08:21 | ||
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| This was great...I have copied it and printed to use it while I play! Thanks, Steve P.S.- I hope I DON"t see you at the tourny's...you would be too tough to beat! | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, TKarrde, 28. May 2003 08:33 | ||
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| I'll echo Wren's statement about position. It is oh-so important. Can't stress that enough. More so than in a ring game imo. And remember, players fear aggression. But use it wisely. TK | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, MozMan, 28. May 2003 08:57 | ||
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| Shorn- I money in about 3 out of every 5 sit-n-goes (though I have had some bad runs, as many as 6 in a row with no money.) I play a lot of them, though... usually 3 or four a night... sometimes as many as 8 or 10. The trick is this, play very tight and very aggressive at the outset. You will notice the crazies at the table, and they will have big, early chip leads, by playing a lot of hands, and going all-in a lot with trash and getting lucky. You will also notice the solid players; if you have a little patience, one of those solid players will usually knock out the crazies for you. Better yet, if there's more than one crazy, sit back and let them beat each other up for a while. They will do a wonderful job of knocking each other out. As the table gets smaller, you start loosening up a little with each player that leaves. But always be aggressive: when you know you have the best hand charge other players to see it. If you are playing tight, you won't have the opportunity often, so you have to make it count. I usually look at it as this kind of a challenge: At the start (full table) I challenge myself to be as tight as I can manage; heads-up (final two) I challenge myself to be as loose as I can manage (wihtout being stupid); throughout, I challenge myself to make as smooth a transition from starting tight to finishing loose as I can manage. -Moz "Life is a dream. Live your dream, because we all wake up eventually." | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, noiseboy, 28. May 2003 15:29 | ||
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| Great post! The nice thing about being tight and hyper-aggressive at the beginning is that it creates a good table image for you. First off, you get the reputation for winning a pot when you are in it, and, secondly, people know it's going to be expensive to play with you so they tend not to mess with you as much. When the blinds start to go up, then you have to loosen up proportionally. Anyway, you said some of the same things I did, but you presented them more clearly. Kudos! | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, noiseboy, 28. May 2003 08:58 | ||
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| I usually try to play tight early, but if there is a big multi-way pot and I have a suited connector or suited A, I'll still see a flop. The thing is that if you play tight early in a tournament, you get a reputation for showing down big hands. Then when the blinds get higher you open up big time, playing looser and more aggressive. Steals are more likely to work once the super loose players have all kamikazed themselves off the table, and once you have established a solid table image where they expect you to win if you show down. A lot of players have trouble playing short-handed, so you basically can play tight, solid poker to get into the top four or five, then you bust out and start being hyper-aggressive. Anyway, this has worked for me, although I know others have been successful with different strategies. | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, Mark, 28. May 2003 09:44 | ||
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| I definately don't play tight in NL tournaments. i try to play position and the players. I will limp with all sorts of crap, 45o, 62o, 75s, as long as my stack is big enough that the blinds don't hurt me. If i'm raised i'll usually fold these. I usually have to fold these on the flop, but once in a while i'll hit a good hand with them (2 pair or str8). When i do make a good hand i can usually bust someone, or at least double up, because the hand is so hidden. Also, against tight timid opponents, one pair with these garbage hands is often enough to take down a small pot. You can only play these when you have a big stack relative to the blinds. if i'm short stacked, i'll wait for the perfect situation and go all in. I've been having success with this. mark | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, noiseboy, 28. May 2003 10:17 | ||
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| Oops, I didn't catch that he was talking about NL, and I was giving him my strategy for the Limit tournaments. Still, in the early rounds, there's not much reason to get involved with marginal holdings as you will often lose a big pot or win a small pot. However, a lot of people are successful with the strategy you mention, putting forth a loose crazy image so they get action on their big hands. I usually save my crazy play for when it gets down to a few players rather than try to force the issue in a full ring. | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, BigDMcGee, 28. May 2003 23:15 | ||
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| I agree with Tcarde's approach as well. How ever, I am very specific in the hands I play, I do NOT play suited connectors, because the best you can reasonably hope for is a draw on the flop, which will cost you more in the long run when you miss. What I play early in tourniments, the first couple rounds, is any pocket pair, hoping to flop my set, then getting my money in there as fast as I can. I'll even call small raises with pocket pairs, 'cause I know if I flop my five to my pair of fives ( 7 and a half ( or so) to 1) I'll be able to break AA, or KK... I won't call much of a raise, but I will call one.. One thing i've noticed is that people dont' raise their AA very much usually... they think it's some magic hand that will trap people. Well, let me tell you this, I don't call raises with non pairs other than AK in the early rounds, and when i call with my pocket pair, it's to trap your AA dead. But you can only get away with this when the blinds are really small. After the first two rounds, I tight way up, try to steal some blinds, look for some weak players to maybe enter a pot with and steal from them heads up, but mostly I sit and wait for a big hand. It's imperititve that you double up as soon as you can. If I can double up in the first round, that's generally enough chips for me to sit out untill about 4 or five players. Then I start raises and re raising alot. and this confuses your opponents, since your image prior to that had been so tight. That's really the secret to sit and goes, is making the adjustments nessisary as the blinds go up, and the table gets shorter. The two biggest mistakes I see are maniacs playing too aggressive when the table is full, and then ring player people playing too tight when it's short handed. You must start playing manaical when the blinds get huge, and the table short handed. You must play at more pots, bluff more, bluff raise and check raise bluff when you sense weakness. Will you bust out sometimes? Yes. Will you just miss the money sometimes? Yes. But if you don't win a good share of these sit and go's, you're going to lose money in the long run, so you have to be an agreessive action player when it gets shorthanded. IF you're a big chip leader, use this to your advantage. Play alot of pots. Raise alot of pots. Push the small stacks all in. Bully Bully Bully. When it gets 3-4 handed, the big hands just don't come around enough to justify waiting for them. All things being equal, it will be the aggressive player that wins. My two cents | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, TKarrde, 29. May 2003 07:01 | ||
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| A couple other thoughts of mine on the SnG. 1) I am one of those that like to slow play AA or KK. This doesn't mean I won't raise pre-flop. I like to raise preflop as often as I feel comfortable. I think it helps get rid of blinds and as I said before... most people HATE aggressive play. But then again, when I am playing my weak QTo or 22, I like to try and get in as cheap as possible as I will fold these 90% of the time after the flop. 2) Overcards are preferred to suited cards as there are usually fewer players seeing the flop (opposed to a ring game), especially if there is a preflop raise. Big cards always do better heads up. 3) Don't be shy to cut your loses. If you raised preflop and then raised post flop with top pair low kicker or middle pair and there is big reraise behind you. Lay your cards down and kick 'em to the dealer. Yes, you may be getting bluffed. Or you may be getting out played. Either way don't call big bets unless you got the goods. (Not sure I am saying to do this 100%, but it is good advice.) My fourth point is more of a question to everyone else. I usually prefer to NOT initiate an all-in call when I am short stacked or early on in the tourney. But latter in the tourney I will go all-in first (but am still careful with it) or when I am the big stack. Is this good or bad strategy? And I hate to go all-in preflop unless I am the chip leader being the bully. (Usually a substantial bet will get others to fold as easily as an all-in. Maybe even better as an all-in gives some desperate player hope of catching something and doubling up.) TK | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, stdioh, 29. May 2003 09:30 | ||
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| It is all about adjusting your tightness depending on the number of players, stack sizes, and how far you are from the money. Most of this knowledge is the sort of thing you pick up with experience. Essentially, you should look at it this way: 1) When you are a big stack, bully the small stacks. 2) When you are a small stack, push all-in fairly frequently (in the endgame) to either steal blinds or double through on a coin flip. 3) When you are on the bubble (right before the money) play very very tight. 4) When you are heads up, play very agressive. In general, if you are an average stack size the whole way through then when the final table comes around you should be tight until you make the money and then start getting looser and more agressive, the fewer people are left. Of course it is very hard to encapsulate the difference between a NL tourney and a ring game, because they are very very different games. | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, MozMan, 29. May 2003 09:36 | ||
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| >>>3) When you are on the bubble (right before the money) play very very tight.<<< This was one area I did not really touch in my post, but is a very important consideration... it's often a good idea to let other players beat each other up at this time. One of them will knock another out for you and hand you a money finish. -Moz "Life is a dream. Live your dream, because we all wake up eventually." | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, Andrew Wells, 29. May 2003 10:38 | ||
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| As a medium stack with one more player needed to bust on the bubble, it can be worth taking advantage of the overall super tightness. I'd make a steal raise at the blinds here whenever possible. If I go shorter, okay then I tighten up with the rest. I just want to use the opportunity to maybe close the gap with the chip leaders when I can't be seriously hurt if I'm played back at. | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, stdioh, 29. May 2003 10:43 | ||
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| Absolutely, but I would classify agressive bubble play as something that should only be attempted by advanced tournament players. If you're just learning and make it to the bubble, playing tight is the way to go. | ||
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| Re: Sit and Go Strategy, Andrew Wells, 29. May 2003 10:55 | ||
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| Yep, nothing trumps the positive reinforcement of moneying if you're new to tournament play. | ||
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