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Server Time: 11/20/2009 7:35:04 PM PACIFIC |
 Should you wait for the big blind?, Mike Caro, 26. May 2003 09:27 | ||
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| One of the most common questions I'm asked that doesn't apply to the strategic considerations during a hand is this: Should I wait for the big blind or enter now? There's no simple answer, but a quick-fix formula usually works. QUICK FORMULA Let's say the game is 10 handed, $40/$80 ,with the blinds $20 (small) and $40 (big). You can come in to the right of the button (in 9th position, beginning the count to the button's left) for $40, since you're a new player to the game. Or, you can sit out seven hands and enter as the big $40 blind, followed by the $20 small blind the following hand. One simple measurement that puts us on the right track, but doesn't consider all the factors, is simply to divide the cost of the blind or blinds (or the blind plus "dead-money" -- where you must forfeit the small blind amount to the center of the pot and only get credit for your big blind) by the number of hands you expect to play before having to take the next big blind. So, the "cost" per hand of waiting for the big blind is $60 (big $40 blind, plus small $20 blind) divided by 10 hands, or $6. The "cost" per hand of coming in for a $40 out-of-position blind (one seat before the button) is $40 divided by 7 hands, or $5.71. The cost per hand of coming in for a $40 out-of-position blind (one seat before the button) if you additionally must forfeit $20 to the center of the pot (to make up for missing the small blind, also) is $60 divided by 7 hands, or $8.57. If you come in for $40 with only two hands (including this one) to be played before taking the big blind, that's $40 divided by 4 hands, or $10. If you come in for $40, plus the $20 dead-money penalty, with only two hands (including this one) to be played before taking the big blind, that's $60 divided by 4 hands, or $15. MORE FACTORS The reason I put "cost" in quotes is that there are more factors to consider. First, the money you put in the pot isn't lost or even shared equally. Except for the forfeited amount, if any, it works in your favor to help you call or raise. So, if you play the hand, it's direct compensation. This makes blind bets significantly more valuable to the player making them than if one player anted for everyone once each round of hands (as is sometimes the case in home games). Ante money doesn't help make your bet less expensive, but blind money does. Then, keep in mind that when you take the blinds normally, you'll be in poor position, having to act before your opponents (with the exception of the big blind against the small blind). The argument that the blinds get to act last on the first betting round is nonsensical, because -- logically -- they not only had to act first, but they were forced to bet! When you come in without waiting for the big blind, you'll have better position. Then, consider the psychological importance of coming in right now, rather than waiting and identifying yourself to opponents as potentially tight. Then, keep in mind that if you're a winning player, later-position hands have theoretical value to you. If it costs more per hand to play now than to wait, but the over-charge is less than the profit you might expect, you should usually pay. There are other considerations, too. But... SIMPLE ADVICE I believe a good rule for accomplished, winning players is that they should come in without waiting for the big blind ONLY if there will be no additional forfeited money in addition to matching the big blind AND they expect to play at least six hands (including this one) before having to take the big blind. Having said that, I acknowledge that I often come in early when the mathematics don't justify it, simply because it has psychological impact on my opponents, making me appear to be more of a gambler than I intend to be. Please share your thoughts about this. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Should you wait for the big blind?, Big_Slick, 26. May 2003 10:23 | ||
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| I'll normally wait for the BB. This gives me time to study the players at the table and get into my "poker mode." Sometimes, before the BB even gets to me, I'll end up leaving the table because I'm not liking how the table looks. Just my thoughts. | ||
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| Re: Should you wait for the big blind?, Mike Caro, 26. May 2003 11:26 | ||
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| on 26. May 2003 10:23 Big_Slick wrote: > I'll normally wait for the BB. This gives me time to study the players at the table > and get into my "poker mode." Sometimes, before the BB even gets to me, I'll end up > leaving the table because I'm not liking how the table looks. > > Just my thoughts. Good point, Big_Slick. Waiting for the big blind does, indeed, give you extra time to observe opponents without risking money. Let's add that to the side of the scale that weighs reasons to wait. Straight Flushes, Mike Caro | ||
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| Re: Should you wait for the big blind?, psuasskicker, 26. May 2003 13:28 | ||
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| on 26. May 2003 10:23 Big_Slick wrote: > I'll normally wait for the BB. This gives me time to study the players at the table > and get into my "poker mode." I typically think this way too unless I'm right next to the button, in which case occassionally I'll play right after sitting down. An interesting concept that I'd like to get some follow-up thoughts to is what happens if you sit down in a position where you're ready to blind almost immediately - say under the gun or on the big blind the next starting hand. I usually like to watch two or three hands before picking up the action, just to get somewhat of a general idea of who plays what. So would there be a disadvantage to waiting, if you're a good enough player that you can size up how good or poor the table is, as well as get a general idea of who the good or the tough players are? Say I sit down UTG. If I wait until the button is on my left, I get to watch three hands before having to post. Otherwise, I only see one hand, and am promptly forced immediately to post a bet and a half in the next two hands drastically out of position. In this case, you've now put money into the pot, do not have good position, and - unless you're playing in a home game where you already know everyone - most likely do not have any kind of judgement about how well the table plays. On the other hand, if I wait, I get to see a few hands to get an idea about who's who at the table, and get to put in only a bet over the first ten hands you get to watch (seeing the first three free, posting, and seven more before blinding) as opposed to blinding where you post a bet and a half in your first three hands. Add that to the positional advantage you have with that blind bet, and it could be a nice way to get to size up the table without posting much, and being in excellent position the one time you do. Thoughts? Chris | ||
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| Re: Should you wait for the big blind?, Andrew Wells, 26. May 2003 18:58 | ||
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| That can have a somewhat negative effect in that it tells the aware players that you are astute enough and patient enough to wait for the advantage of posting behind the button. I wouldn't want to alert anyone right away to this, so I would put up the blinds in their normal position here. | ||
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| Re: Should you wait for the big blind?, Big_Slick, 26. May 2003 19:29 | ||
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| Or it could mean that you're just cheap . | ||
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| Re: Should you wait for the big blind?, Andrew Wells, 26. May 2003 19:39 | ||
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| Yeah. Either way I'd rather not let them know I'm tight before I even played a hand. | ||
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| Re: Should you wait for the big blind?, stdioh, 26. May 2003 12:00 | ||
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| Where I play, they let you "wait for the blinds to pass" so you can come in the middle of things and wait until the puck has gone by, then post behind. I do this because, not only does it give me time to identify the targets at the table and watch the sort of hands that my opponents are playing, table, texture, etc. Aside from the time sitting without playing, I like coming in after the puck because of the human response to perceived "dead money". The additional blind being paid causes those players who know the phrase "pot odds" but don't really understand it, to want to play inferior cards they would otherwise fold and to make inapropriate raises. I'm right in position too and if I have something worthwile it isn't tough to three bet the puck out of the hand for best position. I also find that when you get in without a raise on such a hand and flop a "big blind special" people forget that you posted. There's nothing like posting to get 29o, flopping 2 pair, winning the hand, and having bad players educate you and get angered that you would play those cards. Also, I look at things from a game theory perspective. If you were to come in on the cutoff for one big blind and then leave after playing UTG, then the difference between coming in on the blinds and leaving after the cutoff is thus: add: one hand on the cutoff with a posted blind bet subtract: one hand on the BB with a posted blind bet, one hand on the SB with a posted half blind bet, one hand on the puck, one hand on the cutoff. Essentially, you are being offered a trade: Make the position on your BB much better and have it concurrent with another BB, skip your SB hand, and in exchange don't play your cutoff or your puck. Well, you can say what you will about the value of playing the cutoff and the puck - yes, it is a great position to be in, but I'd bet you dollars to pesos that I could make more money than you if all I had to do was post after the puck (without surrender) and play the rest of my hands for free. For this reason my local casino and many others make you surrender small when you post behind after missing your BB. Now, one thing that would interest me would be if somebody could model your potential for the orbit if you post when there are no other posters and you are in the cutoff or if you post when there is one other poster one position later (3.5 blind bets on table at start). Is it worth one position to have another poster there? Etc. | ||
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| Re: Should you wait for the big blind?, MozMan, 26. May 2003 18:14 | ||
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| Online, I normally wait for the BB so I can watch the table. At my casino, they don't make you post a blind to enter mid-field, but if you are wher ethe SB would be, you have to wait for the button to pass. You also have the option to wait for the button when you first sit. -Moz "Life is a dream. Live your dream, because we all wake up eventually." | ||
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| Re: Should you wait for the big blind?, stdioh, 27. May 2003 09:04 | ||
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| Yeah, the Holliday Inn in Vancouver has a great policy. You can come in without posting and you can post in for the regular afterpost on kill pots. It makes the prospect of taking a meal that much sweeter, since you can just leave the game and get back on the list and it actually saves you money. | ||
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| If the BB is more than 4 seats away, Easy E, 26. May 2003 19:43 | ||
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| I'll come in. Otherwise I'll wait, since my BEST spot will be middle position, without knowing anyone at the table. I'll take the shot at the "free" hand. | ||
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