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Server Time: 11/21/2008 9:16:35 AM PACIFIC |
 play on the button in loose passive game, scott morton, 25. May 2003 18:36 | ||
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| I had the 4h 2h in a loose passive 4-8 holdem game on the button. Typically I would muck this hand, however, by the time it got around to me everyone had called so I decided to play it not fearing a raise from the blinds. The flop comes jh 8h 3h. The big blind bet everyone called I raised big blind reraises everyone folds to me. The big blind is a solid player and I knew she had a flush, but I was praying maybe she only had two pair or trips. I call her to the river and as advertised she shows me Kh Qh for a higher flush. My question is 1) is this a hand I should never have been in in the first place. 2) when she reraised on the flop should I have mucked the hand, or do I pay her off to the river. I think that I shouldn't have played the hand for the following reasons 1) In order to win with this hand I would have to hit either a straight or a flush. 2) even if I flopped a straight or flush, my hand could easily be overtaken in a family pot like this if it wasn't beat already. Please let me know your thoughts on this. thanks | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, Swagman, 25. May 2003 18:53 | ||
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| People would tend to tell you not to play that hand, but I liked that you did in late position with alot of people in. Mixing your hands with a low cards is an ok idea. People might wanna tell ya that you were a distinct disadvantage, which you were, but who cares. The problem with that is your gonna have to play the post flop carefully. I wouldnt have raised that pot with 3 hearts exposed, because your beaten down if another heart shows itself. And I would have bet it and not raised it, and the re-raise eliminated everyone else and also eliminated the pot from growing, so I would have mucked it as well. | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, Big_Slick, 25. May 2003 21:04 | ||
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| I wouldn't have played this hand, but that's me. If you were going to raise, you should have done it before the flop. Here's why... 1. Everyone is going to put the extra bet in which obviously increases the pot. 2. You're representing a strong hand and adding mystery to your hand (unless this table has been seeing a lot of pre-flop raising. If that's the case, yours is just another raise among many.) 2. If you got lucky on the flop, with say 10-4-4 or A-5-3, you could then slow-play the hand or raise it. They would never put you on three 4's. 3. If the flop sucked, you could simply fold. 4. If the flop comes all hearts (which it did) the BB might actually think you have her beat with the ace. If she is a good player like you said, she might buy it since you raised pre-flop. I knew she had a flush, but I was praying maybe she only had two pair or trips. I don't understand the reasoning here. You've correctly evaluated the player but failed to take advantage of it. After she re-raised you, you needed to fold the hand. Bottom line. At this point, flip your cards over and say "good hand, I know you have the higher flush." That is turning lemons into lemonade. That is good advertising for you. The rest of the players will take note that you folded a second-best hand. However, by going to the bitter end with this woman, you did not accomplish anything positive. You can say "well, it helped my image... Every one thinks I'm a loose player now." That's some expensive advertising. The important thing here is to replay that hand in your mind and learn from it. These are only my opinions but I hope it helps. | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, Swagman, 25. May 2003 21:10 | ||
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| Im thinking you wanna see the flop cheaply. Idea is to catch a big pot cuase you in late. But limping in occasionally with 2,4 sooted not so bad cuz it gives you less punishment in the future from the table when a low flop comes again. Don't think your hand can stand a raise for two reasons; likely your already beaten and secondly everyone is folding out and not making the pot worth it. | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, Big_Slick, 25. May 2003 22:25 | ||
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| I'm sorry but I totally disagree. I don't really see the value with limping in with a 2 and a 4. What are you accomplishing? Nothing. You're just playing junk. You're saying the idea is to "catch a big flop." Sorry, but you picked the wrong 2 cards to catch a big flop with. A-A, A-K, K-K are the hands you want to catch a big flop with. 2-4 isn't going to do it for you... that's why you need to rasie pre-flop. If you do happen to catch a huge hand, what does it matter if you're in late position or early position? As I said, no one will be expecting a big hand with 2-4. Moreover, the poster already said the table was loose/passive. So if he bets from any position on the table, he will more than likely have plenty of followers. Now, if the flop doesn't hit -- which it probably won't -- he needs to raise to see if his pre-flop raise accomplished anything or fold. If you have to play 2-4 (which again, I don't advise) you don't play just hoping to catch a big flop. With that strategy, why not play any 2 cards hoping to get lucky? Everything you do while at the table needs to be done with a purpose. Simply betting 2-4 under the button and following every one's lead is a lousy play. Go play Keno, you're odds are better. | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, Swagman, 25. May 2003 23:53 | ||
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| Why not? Exactly if your in late postion with a grp that goes along ways. why not? But why raise pre-flop with 2-4 junk? You just wasted another bet that won't likely get there. Its a multi-way hand. your trying to make that bicycle or low flush. Let me tell you about your AA , AK they just don't hold as much wieght if your facing 9 other players in a low limit game. Obviously a raise pre-flop with them is in order but to reduce the field not necessarily to built a pot. And if you do hit your not likely gonna make that big pot. Multiway hand generally facilitate to the river so therefore you are more likely to gauge how big the pot will likely get. | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, Big_Slick, 26. May 2003 09:38 | ||
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| But why raise pre-flop with 2-4 junk Re-read my posts. The key word here is junk. If you feel compelled to play weak hands, then at least use your position to your advantage and raise pre-flop. The idea is you can win with a lucky flop and maybe win with a another raise after the flop. It happens all the time in poker. Its a multi-way hand. your trying to make that bicycle or low flush. Yeah? Well Scott did make his low flush and got rocked with it. If you like calling to the end with a 2-4 of hearts, more power to ya. What happens if a fourth heart falls on the turn or the river and there are 4 or 5 people still in the hand... now what? You can't possibly expect to make money playing low suited cards hoping to win with a flush. Let me tell you about your AA , AK they just don't hold as much wieght if your facing 9 other players in a low limit game Re-read my posts. I explained that you are looking to hit the big flop with A-A, A-K, K-K, etc. My point being that yes, they become vulnerable in a multi-player hand. Thus, you are looking for the big flop. | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, mroban, 27. May 2003 15:15 | ||
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| I don't understand what a raise would accomplish here. There is no value in the hand and nobody is likely to fold for one more bet (assuming this is a fairly loose table). So the raise is just going to build the pot and cost one more small bet. If he had raised, the BB might check figuring to check raise and trap the 2h-4h with the nut flush. Instead, he had the opportunity to fold when the BB bet it right out (which for me is usually a sign to fold a mediocre or second best hand). The re-raise on the flop got the information he needed and the re-raise from the blind was clearly a sign to fold. So he could have saved 1 1/2 big bets as a result (but didn't). I believe that was the time to fold. Had the BB checked, she might've checked on the turn and a bet could have won the pot. | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, Swagman, 26. May 2003 00:40 | ||
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| Some more thoughts: Admittingly to play 2-4 sooted you have to be about the loosest SOB out there. And Ill admit to being pretty loose. Because Im confident on my play after the flop. But as far as attributing my play to Keno. A 2/4 holdem game with alot of people seeing alot of pots and taking them long ways I'm going to venture to say your gonna be playing Keno with your traditional tight holdings alot more then I will with my multiways. In a loose low limit game if I have postion I will hold onto any 1 gapped suited,. any unsuited connector s with maybe the exception of 2,3 that im dealt, provided that there is no strength shown to me pre-flop. I am calling alot more hands then you AA, AK old school dried up and used up thinkers, but I am winning more pots because I am in more to win, and the pots that I am winning are larger pots then that big slick friend of yours ever does. Have you ever tried playing a looser more aggressive game? Don't knock it until you try it. | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, Big_Slick, 26. May 2003 09:23 | ||
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| Have you ever tried playing a looser more aggressive game? Don't knock it until you try it. Um.. if I remember correctly, I'm the one who insisted raising pre-flop and you're the one who disagreed. Some might call that aggressive. I am calling a lot more hands then you AA, AK old school dried up and used up thinkers, but I am winning more pots because I am in more to win, and the pots that I am winning are larger pots then that big slick friend of yours ever does. First of all, you don't know the first thing about how I play... not that I really care. Second of all, I don't really care how you play either or how many pots you take down. Thirdly, the name calling is uncalled for and only makes you look petty and immature. | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, Swagman, 30. May 2003 19:17 | ||
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| this was meant to be taken as a thread and not as a personal attack on your play. So I'm sorry if you took it as such. However, I still think you are wrong playing this hand by showing strength pre-flop. It is a weak hand and even if it wasn't it in the circumstances of this tread it should be played weak. Even in a loose passive game a raise pre-flop might scare off someone. Why do you want to do this? Secondly you dont wanna establish dominence in this hand. Players should'nt be looking at you as to what their going to be doing. I wanna try to impress this, by making my 2 dollar bet I had no intention of ever winning the hand. I merely wanted to see the possibilities present after the flop. If I thot the pot size would become equatable to me, and my chance of winning the hand was great then and only then would I even stay in. Secondly, I wanted to have a table of image of not be pussied around when a low flop came in the future. Also if your oppenent thinks you hold onto any 2 cards, you are harder to read in the future. | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, shorn, 27. May 2003 05:44 | ||
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| I won't argue whether or not this hand should be played in this spot or not...for me, it would depend on my table image and what hands I have been showing down already. However, I think the key idea here is to build a big pot in case you hit that miracle flop (which BTW is not the flush, but the str8 or trips). This is why (if you are going to play it) raising with 42s on the button is important. It only costs you 1 small bet in expectation and you are likely getting 8 to 1 on this raise because everyone will follow. The same would apply to playing 22-66 on the button...raise and hope to hit your set. The other benefit of raising is that suppose you flop third pair in a raggedy board (J74 rainbow). If the table is loose passive as you describe, you may get a free shot at your 5-outer because you raised pre-flop. If you hadn't someone else might have led out. Finally, I think you are right to raise the flop with your low flush, but when you are re-raised you should probably muck. You have as close to the nut low flush as you can get, and what could this other player have who is re-raising? Sure, she could have a set or just the Ace of hearts. However, considering the table (and your read on her), I think you have to fold and wait for a better spot. I agree with Wren too that showing your hand when you muck here gives too much information to the table. | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, Swagman, 30. May 2003 18:36 | ||
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| By that same logic lets just cap 2-4 sooted pre-flop, becuase you want better then 1 to 8 pay off. 2-4 off is about the worst muli-way hand you can get. But im afraid if you approaching the game with lets make the pot as huge as possible your gonna be heading to the ATM machine often. A 2/4 game I'm not totally opposed to capping every game, but im not gonna be doing this with a hand like 2-4 sooted. Computer analysis has shown to see the flop cheaply as possible with a hand like this, I would agree. Now a hand like 5,6 sooted I'm inclined to accept a raise pre-flop or even to make it a 2-bet yourself as an attempt to get the free card early. But even still im inclined to see the flop cheaply because Im really not interested as much as winning the pot, but as to how big can I make the pot, or how big will the pot get after I see the flop under favorable conditions. But primarily you are right the whole reason I mention going in with a 2-4 sooted was for table image purposes, but not in the way you made it out to be and I don't wanna get into that right now. | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, Wren, 26. May 2003 09:58 | ||
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| "At this point, flip your cards over and say "good hand, I know you have the higher flush." That is turning lemons into lemonade. That is good advertising for you. The rest of the players will take note that you folded a second-best hand. " Hmm...I'm not sure this is necessarily a good thing. Of course, this depends largely on your playing style, and the image you would like to create. On the one hand, doing something like this shows that you are a good read, and therefore a smart player, and that other players shouldn't mess around with you. Invoking fear can be a good thing to do at the table. On the other hand, some players have more success when they act like a "fish". I know stdio likes the bad, aggressive players at his table to think he's not very good, and try to push him around. I don't think he'd ever show a mucked hand like this. Furthermore, a move like this might actually encourage other players to try to bluff you out of pots, as they realize that you're capable of folding good hands. I'd be worried about this myself. I, personally, hate being bluffed at when I'm holding a decent, but not wonderful hand. I hate being bullied around as well. This might be a small flaw in my approach to the game, but I am of the mindset that I would rather make a couple calling errors than a couple folding errors. And if I know that my opponents know I'm willing to call down with decent hands, I know there is a greater chance of a made hand being against me when I get raised, so I can more safely fold. All in all, what I'm saying here is that I believe a lot of balance is needed at the table in order to create and maintain an effective table image and have people playing you the way you want them to. Doing something such as turning a good fold face-up may or may not help your strategy at a particular point in a poker session (if at all). | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, Big_Slick, 26. May 2003 10:30 | ||
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| Good stuff, Wren | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, Wren, 26. May 2003 10:36 | ||
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| Tx. After rereading my response, though, I realized there's a lot more that could be elaborated on about maintaining balance at the table (getting your opponents to call when you want them to call, getting them to fold when you want them to fold, little things to do here and there to maintain a "moneymaking" image for the particular table you are at). Perhaps I'll start a new thread of discussion, after I've had some breakfast at least (I'm starving!!) | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, Big_Slick, 26. May 2003 10:39 | ||
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| You brought up some good points I hadn't considered about table image. Now go eat!!! | ||
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| Re: play on the button in loose passive game, mroban, 27. May 2003 15:06 | ||
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| Normally I would muck this hand too, but with lots of callers and no fear of a raise from the blinds its worth the occasional punt. I love the re-raise on the flop because it got you the information you sought. The re-raise told you (since there was no raise pre-flop) that the BB probably had the flush. BUT, the BB could have easily had 2 pair since BB didn't have to call a raise to see the flop. Also, BB could have had Ah x and was protecting the nut flush draw. So (while others may vehemently disagree) while I probably wouldn't have been in the hand to begin with, I have no problem with how you played it. Admittedly, the one thing that I need to improve myself is the ability to throw away a hand when I suspect I am beat. Although, I suppose (without doing the math) that if you had a 10% chance of having the best hand at that point, it was probably worth making the call on the turn and the river. | ||
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