|
||
|
||
|
Server Time: 2/13/2012 8:22:26 PM PACIFIC |
 What not to do in the money, stdioh, 23. May 2003 08:16 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| This post is going to make me look really really bad, but I figured that I should share the experience for the benefit of others here. Last night I was playing in a fun little $5 tournament on Ultimate Bet. There has been a giant influx in new players so these tourneys are about 80% dead money. There were 224 players. I figure that maybe 30 of them were in my league. I played well, had some good fortune (I doubled through one big stacked bad bad poker player twice when the board was TTx and I had KT and AT respectively and each time he had a ten with no kicker). Anyhow, the final 30 got paid and I made the money, then had some good fortune and was able to chip up to be second chip leader. The real problem? The chip leader was a giant fish - the worst maniac - and was constantly being rewarded for his stupidity. What was bad about this? He was sitting two seats to my left. I couldn't steal the blinds with anything but AA or KK since he would reraise any raise that looked like a steal nomatter what - and obviously I don't want to butt heads with this guy. If any hand was unraised by the time it got to him, he would make a minimum raise. It it was raised when it got to him he would either make a minimum raise or fold. He never showed down cards without having somebody all in and he raised or bet out on every flop that he saw. Needless to say, if I were a short stack, I would relish the guy being there, but with 25,000 chips (he had a little over 30) I was very uninterested in going all-in. So I ended up hamstrung, unable to make moves and use my giant stack to my advantage. When that hapens, it is time to sit and wait for monster hands and punish him with the nuts, but I lost my resolve. Another player at the table chipped up hugely and ended up with 40,000 chips, I had 28,000, and the fish to my left had about 35,000. Each time a table had broken, mine stayed together so I couldn't get off the guy's right. Now it was down to 2 tables and there were 7 at my table. The big stack folded UTG and I held As6s a *very* marginal hand to raise with 7 people and something I should just throw away. Still, nobody else at the table was a threat to me and the #2 stack would reraise with hands like 7Jo. I've got to gun for him and see what I can do. WRONG! I'm supposed to sit tight, fold those cards, and wait to be reseated at the final table. I let impatience get the best of me. That was my first mistake. So I make a standard raise. The blinds were at 600-1200 and I made it 3000 to go. Fish made a minimum reraise indicating that he had cards at least good enough for the worst players in the world to limp with. I called the bet - perfectly reasonable. Everybody else was out and the flop came JJ6. Now with a bigger stack, less money in the pot, or any of a myriad situatiions, it would be correct to make a pot sized bet here. I can't allow him to chase overcards (his most likely holding given his reraise and his raising standards). However, the pot had over 11,000 chips in it and the rest of my stack was 22,000 and change. A pot sized bet would commit me. I thought, "If I win this pot, then I am the big stack of the two of us and I can end this irritation - WRONG! I should be check/folding here and getting rid of my marginal garbage.There are just too many ways he can have me beat and I *know* that he will reraise me with any two cards that he is holding. Stupidly, I push out 10K and as all he does is mash the minimum raise button, he came back at me for another 10K. I went all in for him to turn over QQ. Again, I will state that even a blind squirrel finds the odd acorn. Bad players get AA just as often as good players. Why did I make such a boneheaded move when I was in 3rd place, when first payed $360 USD and when I was much better than the second place player who I predicted would not make it past 4th place (he did end up busting in 4th)? Because I got personal. I wanted to beat *him*. I wanted to humble *him*. I wanted to expose that he was a big fish when my A6 goes up against his K9. Wrong wrong wrong. I should have bit my lip and folded the As6s preflop as I had been doing all night. I should have checked the flop at least. But I got cocky and I got personal and I busted in 14th to win a whopping $8.50 (hooray for $3.50 of profit). Now I can sit in a ring game for 4 hours, lose $1K and not feel the slightest bit bad about it, but after busting out of that $5 tourney and actually making money in it, I lost my emotional neutrality. Why? Because I let a fish drag me down to his level and then beat me with experience. Hopefully, this will serve as a cautionary tale. Punish idiots when you have good cards. Not when you have cards just a little better than the garbage they usually play. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: What not to do in the money, Big_Slick, 23. May 2003 08:27 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Great post, stdioh. A similar situation happened to me last night in a free roll. There were 2 very aggressive players at my table to start the tourney. Every time someone bet, they would put in a huge raise or go all in... everyone would fold. Before long, they had much larger stacks and used that to "bully" everyone. It didn't take long to figure out what they were up to. I wanted to knock both of them out so badly that I started to play below my game. I ended up getting knocked out early. So did the other 2, but that wasn't any condolence to me. I needed to sit tight and let these two ruin themselves. It was only a matter of time. You can't always have the best hand, right? I learned a good lesson as did you. What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. Get 'em next time. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: What not to do in the money, spk, 23. May 2003 12:19 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| stdioh , Big_Slick- Maybe the players you discribe are a little better than you think, confident enough to play a marginal hand on occasion. Maybe the two of you are too tight....if everybody played text book then whoever got the best cards for the session would win, and it would not be too interesting. Anyway it is as much a stratagy to turn over a marginal hand as it is to turn over a strong/solid hand, maybe even more so with the marginal hands. Studioh I have to ask during the tourny how successful were you at putting him on his cards??? This guy obviously frustrated you and I think he/she deserves a little credit..... | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: What not to do in the money, noiseboy, 23. May 2003 13:16 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| There certainly are times when you should play even trash hands in a tournament. Sometimes you haven't seen a decent hand in a long time and you have to steal a few blinds with whatever comes along. However, the player he is describing was playing every hand, and playing marginal holdings when there were raises before him, then getting lucky flops. The word for that is maniac, and one cannot be a maniac and be a good player. One can be very aggressive, and almost seem like a maniac, but still have some sense to their play. You can be loose to a point, if you are smart about it, it doesn't sound like this was one of those types. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: What not to do in the money, Big_Slick, 23. May 2003 13:32 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| The one player I described went all in preflop with a 5-9 off. The other went all-in after the flop with an A-K off. The flop was 5-9-10. He lost to 9's & 10's. So to answer your question, no... they are not better than I described. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: What not to do in the money, stdioh, 26. May 2003 07:58 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Well, that's the thing. You can't put a maniac like that on cards. He reraises with AA and he reraises with Q8o. Guys like that can't be read. You need to see when you have a good shot at taking them out and play selectively. However in a tournament endgame, playing marginal hands with a big stack against another big stack is for the birds. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| I disagree, Easy E, 23. May 2003 09:23 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| "This post is going to make me look really really bad, but I figured that I should share the experience for the benefit of others here." Yeah, you might have had a temporary mind blowout, but posting it gains you points in my book, not loses them. And YOU gain because you'll always have this reminder, should you need it again. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: I disagree, shorn, 23. May 2003 09:28 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Me too. Nobody is perfect and we are all prone to frustration at one time or another. It is beeter that you recognize it and try not to do it next time. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: I disagree, MozMan, 23. May 2003 09:32 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I agree with Easy here. I think we all know that poker is a constant learning experience... if it were possible to get to a point where we know all there is to know and always did everything right, there would no longer be any challenge in it and it wouldn't be worth the time to play any more. Struggling with it, recognizing the err of your ways, and sharing the struggle with us gives you a lot of credibility. I will say this too, you needed to be able to show this guy up. The only real mistake that mattered was that you picked the wrong battle. A little more patience, and you might have gotten the right hand, one that gave you the nuts and gave him anything that he thought he could at least bluff. Any mistakes you made after that we incidental, and would not have been there if you hadn't taken that first step. -Moz | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: I disagree, stdioh, 23. May 2003 10:23 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Thanks Easy. Kind words always appreciated. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Sure, moron...., Easy E, 24. May 2003 16:27 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| ;) | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: What not to do in the money, noiseboy, 23. May 2003 10:41 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Yeah, I busted out of a recent tourney trying to punish a fish. He was to my right and I got dealt AJs he raised, I reraised to get it heads up. It would have been much smarter to just limp at this point, since I was getting fairly close to the money. I should have let people come in when I have a hand that does well multiway, and if I don't flop, I could still get away cheap, if I did flop, I could win a big pot and get in the money. Anyway, a good player called too, and I stupidly tried to bluff when the flop came ragged. Of course, the good player had pocket JJ's and won the pot when no A came for me. What the heck was I thinking? Even if the fish was likely in with some BS hand, the good player had to have something to call two raises with. But since I had 3-bet, I felt committed with so many of my chips in there. Anyway, it's hard for good players to sit back and watch a fish winning, but sometimes you just have to sit back and let it happen and try not to force it against them. If you focus on one player, you're off your game and other players will take you down. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: What not to do in the money, stdioh, 23. May 2003 10:56 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I played a live tourney last weekend where I came heads up at the end with a giant fish and I had about 85% of the money at the table. He fished out on me to double through twice. He was pushing in with overcards on any flop, etc. So when I ended up seeing a free flop with 63o and flopping 256, I was more than happy when he only called my bet and called my all-in on the turn and shocked when he revealed pocket dueces. Yep, sometimes you're the bug and sometimes you're the windshield. Nothing hurts more than being fished out on a couple of times only to lose the final hand to bad playing. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: What not to do in the money, Huck, 23. May 2003 12:02 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Great post. We all need to be reminded of this once in awhile. In fact, it reminds me of a the first all-in move made by Claude in the recent WPT even in France, when he pushed back against the blabber-mouth Tony G when he had a mere Jh - 5h. He got lucky though, and doubled up. He should have lost to Tony G's real hand (A-K), and given him another pile of chips to brag about. Nothing's worse than feeding a fish your last meal! | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: What not to do in the money, kaleb2000, 23. May 2003 13:08 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Just wanted to say keep up the good work! You've given me tons of advice on this forum and I appreciate it all. On a side note, I don't play hold'em but can appreciate the reflective nature of your post and the emphasis on patience. It always seems to me that patience is what seperates the good from the bad poker players. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: What not to do in the money, Andrew Wells, 23. May 2003 14:56 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| The good thing is you knew what you had to do. Wait to be reseated at the final table. Usually it's a wonderful thing to have a maniac get this far in a tourney. You don't have to be the short stack killer. I think it's worth two or three places higher in finish overall for a solid player to have such a fool still dancing when you're all in the money. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: What not to do in the money, stdioh, 27. May 2003 08:26 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Very Germain words. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: What not to do in the money, Swagman, 24. May 2003 01:12 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Here fishy, fishy fishy. Would like to say if this guy was half the fish you put him on, he would't have made you think so hard. Word. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: What not to do in the money, Swagman, 24. May 2003 01:21 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Sorry I couldnt let this one alone: "If any hand was unraised by the time it got to him, he would make a minimum raise. It it was raised when it got to him he would either make a minimum raise or fold. He never showed down cards without having somebody all in and he raised or bet out on every flop that he saw. Needless to say, if I were a short stack, I would relish the guy being there, but with 25,000 chips (he had a little over 30) I was very uninterested in going all-in." Sounded like to me he was playing a solid enuff game. Using his stack to his advantage. I was'nt there so I could be wrong "So I ended up hamstrung." I'd hate to ever claim an enormous fish hamstrung me. Furthermore you not the Fish allowed your emotions to enter into the game. Because you was sure he was a minnow. Your right you probably never should have made this post. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: What not to do in the money, stdioh, 27. May 2003 08:29 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Nope...he wasn't playing solid. He was constantly letting baby stacks double through him by getting all in with them and having total garbage. He was in the right spot to sit on his stack and slowly increase it, but he chose to throw too much weight around. In any event, I don't need you to tell me that I made a boneheaded move...I know I made a boneheaded move and hence the post. And yeah, I could have just said nothing about it, but I am hoping that there are some people here who can learn from my mistake and maybe some good will come of it. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| a dissenting view of Tony G, and the "fish", BigDMcGee, 24. May 2003 04:13 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| In repsondse to the first poster, and the comment about Tony G in the recent wpt event. Was Tony G Hyper aggressive, yes. Was he a fish. No way. He was using his chip lead as a weapon, making excellent reads, and most importantly, he was controlling the table. He got the whole table to play his game, to react to him, and to make mistakes. That's not the work of a Fish, but of a very talented, albiet loose, agressive and obnioxios poker player. Claude in my opinion was the fish. He only pushed his chips in when he had very marginal hands. There is a very big difference between making a moderate raise or reraise with a marginal hand, in order to out play your opponent when you see the flop. It's a whole other thing to risk your whole stack on a marginal hand before seeing the flop. It's an art to play hyperaggessively, and to play with a big stack. I don't think stdioh was giving his "fish" proper credit. It sounded like to me he was playing his big stack like he should. And most importantly, he was controlling the table, making you make a mistake against him. To risk your money on a Ace six, and a pair of sixes when the board was paired is a huge blunder, and more the act of a fish then playing aggresively. Consider this paragraph from his post: If any hand was unraised by the time it got to him, he would make a minimum raise. It it was raised when it got to him he would either make a minimum raise or fold. He never showed down cards without having somebody all in and he raised or bet out on every flop that he saw. Needless to say, if I were a short stack, I would relish the guy being there, but with 25,000 chips (he had a little over 30) I was very uninterested in going all-in. 1) when you have a huge chip lead, keeping the pressure on with raising unraised pots is an aggressive, but sound stragtedgy.. if you're playing to grab hold of chips and win the tourney, not just place. 2)Either raising or folding someone's preflop raise is a VERY sound stratagy. My definition of a fish includes someone who calls too much. 3)if you're a chip leader, you should be putting people all in before your show. it does two things. One, you get full price when you make a good hand. Two, it puts incredible pressure on short stacks, making them be faced with busting out of the tourniment. 4) if he was either raising or reraising preflop, and never calling, it is almost essential that he bets out any flop he sees, particularlly heads up, because flops are much more likely to miss a hand then hit it, and there are plenty of pots to be picked up. In addition, he said that the "fish" would re raise any raise that looked like a steal no matter what, so you couldn't steal with anything but AA, or KK. First off, that's a great stratagy, not a bad one. It keeps people from stealing his blind with out having those kinds of hands, handicapping you. Well, if it's true that he's doing that anytime it looks like a steal, then you know he's doing that with incredibly marginal hands, and you should be willing to reraise/ all in with many hands more than AA, KK. Even for a maniac, if you force him to put in most of his stack, he'll think twice about calling, and if he's a true maniac, he'll call your jj with 66, or ace 7, which is exactly what you want. And if he's not a maniac, which is what i suspect, he'll lay his hand down. I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I think stdioh made a lot of labels, and disrespect to the play of the chip leader, and that's no way to learn anything in poker. I think it's better to try and analyse and understand his play, rather than get pissed, and label him a fish, and try and beat him. He is right in saying that you beat an aggressive play by trapping them with a big hand. He is not right in labeling that player an idiot. Watch the way pros like Phil Ivey, or Lanye Flack play. It ain't like any book your read by Sklansky, Coultier, or McCoy. They play aggressive, they enter pots with marginal hands, and they are two of the most successful pros around. Anyway, that's my five cents... Not bad for my first post on united poker forum | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: a dissenting view of Tony G, and the "fish", Swagman, 24. May 2003 04:38 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Amen. I read that post and said whao. A fish calling another a fish. Whose the fish? Your the fish, I'm the fish, and he's the fish as well. Wheres the shark? Tell you who the sharky parky is. An astute aggressive player. That dominates the tight-wides. Wins hands cuz he's in more hands to win cuz he knows how to play after the flop. He goes in with 5,9o you say? But what was he's stack looking like? He prolly thought you were such a poor player that you'd muck your pair of kings to his raise becuase he smelt fear. Even better when he shows you that 5,9o. Your gonna label him 'the fish'. And he likes to be thot of as the fish, cuz the wolves in sheeps clothing now, brother. Put the books down if all your learning is to "tighten up." I'm so sick to death of those two word. 'Well you should prolly 'tighten up', joe." I could go on and on. Instead I think this site needs an intense thread of the MANIAC VS. THE GOOD AGGRESSIVE PLAYER. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: a dissenting view of Tony G, and the "fish", stdioh, 27. May 2003 08:45 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| I consider myself a loose agressive player. It is a good style, but there are limits. If you're going to tell me that somebody who raises every hand is doing something clever, then you can buy some of my swampland too. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: a dissenting view of Tony G, and the "fish", Big_Slick, 27. May 2003 10:13 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Amen. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: a dissenting view of Tony G, and the "fish", noiseboy, 24. May 2003 17:49 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Definitely being hyperaggressive doesn't make one a fish. Some of the world's best fall into that category, as you point out. However, the post describes somebody who basically was just raising everything, then getting lucky and catching cards. This to me sounds like a maniac. I play in California tournaments, I know the type of smart aggressive player you are talking about, and yes, they are very difficult to play against. However, without hearing more about how other hands were played, I can't really tell for certain whether this guy was smart aggressive, or just a maniac. I think Stdioh would know the difference, as he is an extremely aggressive player himself from hands he's posted. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: a dissenting view of Tony G, and the "fish", Swagman, 24. May 2003 18:25 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| "However, the post describes somebody who basically was just raising everything, then getting lucky and catching cards. This to me sounds like a maniac. " Did you read the same post as I did? The post discribed the so called 'fish' as Helmuth playing agianst a group of women at PTA meeting. Stdioh was the one that went in against seven other poeple with A,7o or some such bologne. The so called 'fish' according to the post never made a bad move in my opinion. Anyhows. It is unwholesome to atribute the monocle of 'fish' to someone when you dont know them, and especially if your playing on-line with someone that you never met. This is a perfect example of someone calling someone a 'fish' when the exact opposite is more then likely the truth. So be nice out there and be careful who you are calling the fish cause it could be you. My cat loves my tuna fish smell. Word. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: a dissenting view of Tony G, and the "fish", stdioh, 27. May 2003 08:53 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| > Did you read the same post as I did? The post discribed the so called 'fish' as Helmuth > playing agianst a group of women at PTA meeting. Stdioh was the one that went in against seven > other poeple with A,7o or some such bologne. The so called 'fish' according to the post never > made a bad move in my opinion. It was A6 suited, which is a fine hand against 6 opponents (there were 7 of us total). It was the right point in the tournament to raise this hand and I defend that move as often very appropriate. With this piece of work on my left I probably should have let the hand go though. Nonetheless, you cannot categorically call my starting hand given the facts decidedly bad, or you have not played enough NL tournaments. > Anyhows. It is unwholesome to atribute the monocle of 'fish' to someone when you dont know Oh, Mrs. Malaprop, when will you learn. Moniker is an appellation and its etymology is rooted in Ireland. Monocle is an eyeglass for one eye, that the Monopoly Tycoon wears. > them, and especially if your playing on-line with someone that you never met. This is a perfect > example of someone calling someone a 'fish' when the exact opposite is more then likely the > truth. So be nice out there and be careful who you are calling the fish cause it could be you. > My cat loves my tuna fish smell. Word. Was it you that I was playing in that tournament? You seem awefully defensive about this whole thing. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: a dissenting view of Tony G, and the "fish", stdioh, 27. May 2003 08:48 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| Thanks noise. Indeed, there are some very agressive players that I fear for their abilities. Then there are the guys who push all in on the first hand of a T1000 tournament with a T10 blind and pocket sixes, then bemoan their bad luck when somebody calls them down with KK or AA. ... or when another fish comes in for this massive bet with AK and catches. The ones I fear make pot sized bets on the turn when they know I have a kicker problem. They push around money when the board is K54 and put me on KJ or the likes. They don't just fling money around expecting everybody to run screaming. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| Re: a dissenting view of Tony G, and the "fish", stdioh, 27. May 2003 08:43 | ||
| View ( Message | Thread ) | Return to Thread List | |
| > 1) when you have a huge chip lead, keeping the pressure on with raising unraised > pots is an aggressive, but sound stragtedgy.. if you're playing to grab hold of chips > and win the tourney, not just place. Yes, this is good when you have some kind of hand or on the occasional bluff. It doesn't work when you do it any hand. It caught up with him and humbled him, as it always does. I was just too anxious to be the one to stick it to him. > 2)Either raising or folding someone's preflop raise is a VERY sound stratagy. My > definition of a fish includes someone who calls too much. Yes, but not when you reraise with your J7o. > 3)if you're a chip leader, you should be putting people all in before your show. it > does two things. One, you get full price when you make a good hand. Two, it puts > incredible pressure on short stacks, making them be faced with busting out of the > tourniment. That depends on a lot. If you actually have decent cards, yes. If you are on garbage, no. > 4) if he was either raising or reraising preflop, and never calling, it is almost > essential that he bets out any flop he sees, particularlly heads up, because flops > are much more likely to miss a hand then hit it, and there are plenty of pots to be > picked up. When he would bet all in to a very coordinated board, right in the playing zone, with no piece of it, that is fishiness, not advanced strategy. Sklansky will tell you when to bet into a king high board as a bluff, etc, and he knows what he is talking about, but nobody will tell you to bet big into AK9 with suits when you are holding nothing and there was a preflop raiser before you. > In addition, he said that the "fish" would re raise any raise that looked like a > steal no matter what, so you couldn't steal with anything but AA, or KK. First off, > that's a great stratagy, not a bad one. It keeps people from stealing his blind with > out having those kinds of hands, handicapping you. Well, if it's true that he's > doing that anytime it looks like a steal, then you know he's doing that with > incredibly marginal hands, and you should be willing to reraise/ all in with many > hands more than AA, KK. Even for a maniac, if you force him to put in most of his > stack, he'll think twice about calling, and if he's a true maniac, he'll call your jj > with 66, or ace 7, which is exactly what you want. And if he's not a maniac, which > is what i suspect, he'll lay his hand down. Nope. This is precisely wrong. If I don't get a chance to know where I am in the hand then I have to push all in on his resteal if I want to try to take it. If I'm doing that then I'm the second highest stack going all in with the only player who can remove me from the tournament. This is grade A stupid with anything but AA or KK - I know a lot of people who would even argue about playing KK here. If the tournament was winner take all, you might be able to think about doing something here, but with an expanded payout, running head first into a dumb big stack is *terrible*. And in an endgame, stealing blinds becomes an important part of the game. Essentially what this guy was doing, was taking the blinds when nobody had a hand and getting doubled through when somebody had a hand and a small enough stack to risk it. He was keeping the small stacks alive when he should be letting them blind out and fight eachother. > I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I think stdioh made a lot of labels, and > disrespect to the play of the chip leader, and that's no way to learn anything in > poker. I think it's better to try and analyse and understand his play, rather than > get pissed, and label him a fish, and try and beat him. He is right in saying that I understand him. He is a fish. And it's not about getting pissed. It is about making good plays and making the odd mistake. There's no mysticism in the great wise chip leader. More often than not, early leads are caught by fools who double through a lot via other fools and the odd good player. Sometimes they have the deck run over them and pull a Varkonyi, but generally they blast it all back to the table like Waterman (or whatever that guy's name was - the one who took out Jett this year). What I'm getting at is that understanding a chip leader is important, but don't give him too much credit. A chip leader is very often not thinking about much. > you beat an aggressive play by trapping them with a big hand. He is not right in > labeling that player an idiot. Watch the way pros like Phil Ivey, or Lanye Flack > play. It ain't like any book your read by Sklansky, Coultier, or McCoy. They play > aggressive, they enter pots with marginal hands, and they are two of the most > successful pros around. Anyway, that's my five cents... Not bad for my first post > on united poker forum Phil, Layne, Jesus, all these guys know when to move in, when to push somebody off a hand, things that I try to be able to do myself. Agression can be respected and making a play at the right moment can be respected. Anybody who respects someone who blindly shoves out chips every hand is a fool's disciple. Somebody who respects him from afar, having not been even on the rail, should look into some swamp land I have for sale. | ||
| Return to Thread List | ||
| POKER FORUM HOME | POKER FORUM | LINK TO US | ARCHIVE | ONLINE POKER | Copyright 2002, United Poker Forum |
|
Getting Started |
UPF Tournaments |
Poker News, Views, Rules |
Poker Strategy & Psychology |
Money and Bankroll Poker Bonuses & Promotions | World Series of Poker (WSOP) | Play Online Poker | Poker Odds & Statistics | Tournament Poker | Poker Books, Videos & Learning Tools Looking for a Poker Game | Poker Bad Beats | Not Quite Poker | Quizzes and Polls | Forum Suggestions & Bugs |
|
|
|
|
Interesting Links: Online Poker | Free Poker Games | United Poker Network | Find Vancouver Businesses |
|