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Server Time: 11/20/2009 5:00:57 PM PACIFIC |
 Hellmuth at WSOP, Mojo702, 22. May 2003 14:06 | ||
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| Got this from Gutshot: >"Phil looses the pot and his temper. > >Phil Hellmuth raised $35,000 from the small blind after Sammy >Farha limped with QJ of diamonds. The flop came K92 with two >diamonds, check check, turn 6d. Check, bet of $30,000 by Farha >which was called by Phil. River 2s, check by Phil, bet $35,000 and >again flat called by Phil. Sammy won with a Q high flush and Phil >showed AK and proceeded with a verbal assault on calling his >raises with QJ." Won't somebody tell Phil to shut the f**k up and play his damn cards. To act like a man and stop bitching? He may be one of the best players, but he sure acts like a little bitch don't you think? He irritates me with his cry-baby act. | ||
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| Re: Hellmuth at WSOP, noiseboy, 22. May 2003 14:39 | ||
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| People who know him say he is a nice person away from the table, but man, he whines like a baby when he loses. Plus, the hand he lost he played bad, why didn't he bet the turn, making it too expensive for drawing hands to continue? I know he's one of the world's best, but it seems to me like he let the draw in by checking the flop. I know he thinks his raise should have driven out the QJs, but when you put it in writing that you raise aggressively with pocket 77's, you've got to expect people to call you with less then premium hands, especially when the blinds/ante's start getting ugly. I know some say it's all part of his act, but I still think it just makes poker look bad. Maybe he was a big John Mackenroe fan as a kid. | ||
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| Re: Hellmuth at WSOP, noiseboy, 22. May 2003 14:40 | ||
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| I shoulda said "pre-flop raise" so the above commentary would make more sense. | ||
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| Re: Hellmuth at WSOP, stdioh, 23. May 2003 08:28 | ||
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| Indeed. I'm glad he's not at the final table because the pissing and moaning that would go on would probably hurt poker when seen on TV. I'm upset that Phil Ivey didn't make it though. Putting a black man at the final table of the WSOP would probably get more young black men interested in poker and that would be just fine by me. | ||
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| Re: Hellmuth at WSOP, flintsword, 22. May 2003 15:44 | ||
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| In Phil's defense I should point out that I saw Phil in an earlier final table in the WSOP where he was down to his ***last chip*** and he behaved well, calm, and dignified. A real gentleman. That said, ... this is the World Championship, and table image is (I am told) a very important factor. Annoyed that another player stared him down with QJ suited, which in "poker-speak" may be the equivalent of "Phil who?" ... Annoyed for sure. Interested in making sure that everyone in earshot understood that he had AK in his fist ... Absolutely. The equivalent I have seen is when a weaker chess player (who was a strong ranked Expert) plays a "really risky" opening (say, ... A King's Gambit) against a really strong master. The stronger players snorts, turns to his friends and says, "This won't take long boys!" The Expert proceeds to get real objective, plays exactly, and when the Master makes a small mistake, the weaker player pounces and "debones" the Master in a dozen moves. The strong Master resigns and the Expert permits himself to say, "You are right, ... it did not take long." What does a stronger poker player gain with a rant? In Phil's case he obviously feels it brings him something. The opponents that see the rant as an exploitable weakness will survive. The players that are tilted will not. The Chess Expert was me ten years ago and I felt great ... and the player that forced his QJ flush to conclusion - I am sure - feels just fine. Where are the chips in that play? The QJ player has them. flintsword | ||
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| Re: Hellmuth at WSOP, noiseboy, 22. May 2003 16:27 | ||
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| Yeah, I'm not a complete Phil-basher, and I know it's a drag when you lose; however, I think he didn't really take a bad beat. I don't think it's an act when he gets emotional, I don't think it's calculated, I think he just has trouble controlling his emotions when it doesn't go his way. | ||
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| Re: Hellmuth at WSOP, flintsword, 22. May 2003 17:13 | ||
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| I know you are not Phil-bashing noiseboy. I think we would all like poker champions to be super-cool relaxed individuals that just win. He was cool and collected in the event I saw earlier. Alas, we live in a world filled with all sorts of cats and Phil gives free rein to his emotions and rants occasionally. Too bad, but that is my opinion. The reason I suspect that the rants are an act, is the "fact" that control and discipline are at the heart of superior poker play. If Phil really did "lose it" on a regular basis, the tilt would stop him from EVER making a final table, ... Yet he makes final table after final table. This leads me to the conclusion that he is under control at all times, including the times that he ***appears*** to lose control. Fair to say that he is a "different kinda cat" and the player that rammed his QJ suited to make his flush caused a reaction: Phil lost his temper and his chips. That's poker. Just an opinion ... :) flintsword | ||
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| Re: Hellmuth at WSOP, tron, 22. May 2003 18:27 | ||
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| I noticed their is a relationship to great poker players to chess. i.e. Carlos Mortenson, and Howard Lederer. Does one gain an advantage learning chess and applying the skills? tks | ||
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| Re: Hellmuth at WSOP, stdioh, 23. May 2003 08:35 | ||
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| One of the funniest things I've seen was a chess match between two friends of mine back in first year university. They didn't know eachother. The one is now a Putnam Fellow, and was the most promising undergrad mathematician of his year. The other was an expert rated chess player with a long pony tail and a decent set of social skills (and a very respectable mathematician to boot). Derek, (the ubersmart one) expected to clean up on the match and was playing ABC chess. Steve (the better chess player who looked a lot dumber - and cleaner) was doing apparently fishy things, laying in advanced strategies - trading pieces of position - the things that expert chess players do that I cannot fathom. Derek was very cocky until he was checkmated in about 40 moves. He pulled a Phil Hellmuth there in the residence caffeteria - how could a supersmart man like him be beaten by a guitar playing beatnik? I think Phil's problem is that he grotesquely underestimates his opponents - even the ones he is better than. When they do something clever he assumes that they are doing something stupid. When they beat him smartly or dumbly, he looks for any excuse to tell them how stupid they are because he needs to justify to himself that he is good, but unlucky...just like the mopes you see around the cardroom who haven't shaved in a week and will tell any random person how they never make their straights. | ||
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| Re: Hellmuth at WSOP, MozMan, 23. May 2003 09:53 | ||
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| >>>I think Phil's problem is that he grotesquely underestimates his opponents - even the ones he is better than.<<< I gotta say, I think I understand him.... and while whining and cry-babying can get really irritating, I think it's perfectly predictable. It's kind of a pendulum thing. He wasn't always successful, in fact there was once a time when he could have been characterized as spectacularly mediocre at best. He had a self-image that was probably abysmal, and saw himself as a general failure. He was likely a habitual underachiever. (I know this because he is a LOT like me... and I spent many years like this myself). Then comes some defining moment, when he realizes that he is a lot smarter, and much more talented than he ever imagined. The pendulum swings. Right now, he's still on that high side, and any time something or someone challenges this new belief it is nearly impossible to swallow. Eventually, the pendulum will settle, and he will be able to recognize (probably with some pride) where he actually fits in; he'll be able to acknowledge when someone is better than him, and use that constructively to improve, rather than blow up in sheer dis-belief. Just a different perspective, for what it's worth. :) -Moz | ||
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| Re: Hellmuth at WSOP, JLenart, 23. May 2003 10:20 | ||
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| While I'm neither a huge fan of Hellmuth's nor a basher, some arguement can be made about his status amoung the best in the world. 9 bracelts speak volumes. John | ||
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| Re: Hellmuth at WSOP, Andrew Wells, 23. May 2003 16:18 | ||
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| I think you've got it exactly right. The price of being a "name" player is that everyone wants to take you out. Apparently Phil disregards this. | ||
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| Re: Hellmuth at WSOP, stdioh, 23. May 2003 08:26 | ||
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| I think that he never learned a cardinal rule - don't educate the table. You want players to call big raises when they don't have odds to do so. When they suck out on you you're not supposed to tell them that they are stupid - maybe they will stop making bad calls - you say "good hand" and move on. That said, if I were playing with these giant stacks of chips and was a contender for WSOP champ, I'd probably say nastier things when I lost like that. Certainly with the JJ QQ fiasco. | ||
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| Re: Hellmuth at WSOP, 3Kings, 23. May 2003 17:13 | ||
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| How about Phil vs Tony G. at the final table. That would be something to see (at least hear). | ||
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