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Server Time: 11/20/2009 4:01:29 PM PACIFIC |
 Confused about low hands, Snorbolus, 22. May 2003 07:37 | ||
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| A very basic question but I don't play high/low games so please humor me. In a game, such as Omaha8, where you have more than 5 cards available from which to make your hand can you select any of those cards towards a low hand - just as you could towards a high? Of course, in omaha, you have to use exactly 2 from your hand and 3 from the board but, within that confine, can you take any available 5 card hand? Specifically: you have A2KK and the board is 346 2 K. Can you take A2 346 as your low? It seems to me that you should be able to, but I am confused because I often read about players "busting out by pairing one of their low cards". Does this mean that they didn't yet have a complete low hand and the paired low card simply didn't help (in the same way that a queen wouldn't have either), or is there some weird rule that if there is a low pair available to you then you have to include it? I ask because I am becoming increasingly interested in omaha. We have been playing quite a bit of omaha high only in my home game. I am surprised and delighted by just how terrible, even reasonably sound, hold'em players are at omaha. Also, omaha seems to appeal to the "gamble it up" sort of players who normally prefer mulit-wildcard games that are much too complicated for me to have any sort of an edge in. I think that these guys might like omaha8 even better. Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: Confused about low hands, shorn, 22. May 2003 08:15 | ||
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| You can use the A2 in your example because there are 4 low cards on the board. Where you can't use the A2 is if the board were 362TK and your 2 is now "counterfeited" since you must use 2 from your hand. We play Omaha hi only in our home game too and it is gambling game for sure. I win much more $$ in that game than in Holdem. However, Omaha Hi at a casino is a whole different story...I won't even touch it because the competition is usually the sharks. | ||
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| Re: Confused about low hands, TKarrde, 22. May 2003 08:20 | ||
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| Where is 4POKER when you need him? That is his game of choice. But really there are different kinds of Low games. Some a straight or flush will count against you. And others it won't. In your example you can't play A2234 for the low. But can play the A2346. In a 5 card game is where your pair would hurt you. Normally the games you will find (8 better) will play where A2345 is the best hand and straights and flushes don't count against you. I wish I could tell you more but I too am just getting interested in Omaha and Low games. TK | ||
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| Re: Confused about low hands, stdioh, 22. May 2003 08:43 | ||
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| In Omaha/8 you pick your hands thusly: Make the best high hand using any 2 cards in your hand and 3 cards from the board. Make the best low hand using any 2 cards in your hand and 3 cards from the board. Thus if the board is 2346K and you hold A2KK then your high hand (which almost certainly will not win) is KKK64 and your low hand (which is *not* the nuts) is 12346. Note that a player who has A5 will have you beat with those two cards for both the low and the high as his best low will be A2345. So if two players are jamming the crap out of this hand on the river, don't be making crying calls to the cap. Now in something like Crazy Pineapple /8, you don't have to use any of the cards in your hand to make a low. Thus if the board is A2345, all of the players who see the showdown will be getting a cut of the low half of the pot and the other half will go to the high. Thus a pineapple hand like A2K is playable, since a flop like A99 will let you chuck your deuce and play a good high while a flop like 458 will let you chuck your king and play at the nut low. When you have a made nut low in Omaha and are counterfeited, you are almost certainly dead, but in pineapple if you had [A2] and the board is 458 and then hits an ace, your 2 still makes you a very good hand. The only hands that beat you for the low are hands that use two uncounterfeited low cards and since players only have 2 cards in their hands instead of 4, you still have a very decent chance of winning with your 2 alone. | ||
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| Re: Confused about low hands, stdioh, 22. May 2003 08:43 | ||
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| You should probably pick up Zee's split book. | ||
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| Re: Confused about low hands, Wren, 22. May 2003 08:56 | ||
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| Omaha-8's a great game. Beginners tend to find it fun right away, despite their confusion (which is inevitable, in making the transition from hold'em). You should definitely introduce it to your friends, but play for very small stakes so that the ultra-newbie mistakes (eg trying to use one hole card to complete a flush) don't end up costing anyone a lot of money. On to your questions... When you have A2KK and the flop comes 346, you currently have the nut low hand: A2346. When the turn comes another 2, it counterfeits the 2 already in your hand, and now anyone holding an A3, A4 or A6 has the same low hand as you. Even worse, your hand is no longer the nuts. Someone holding A5 now has the wheel (A2345). This is why is it desireable in O8 to have low "back-up". For example, A23 in your starting cards. This way, if the flop comes, say, 578, you already have the nut low with your A2, and you will still have the nut low if any A, 2 or 3 hits on the turn or river. O8 is all about making the nuts. Obviously, the ideal situation is to have both the low and high nuts (AA23, double-suited, is such a monster because it can easily go both ways). An almost-as-good situation is to have the nuts one way, and a pretty good hand the other. (For example, A288, with a board of 378JQ, rainbow. You have the nut low and middle set for high, which could very well scoop.) You don't want to be in a situation in which you're HOPING to get one half or the other, but are far from nutty either way. For example, A35J on a board of 37J,86 - your hand is crap and really should have been mucked on the flop. (Poor players will routinely play 2-pair and 3rd or 4th nut lows to the river - don't do this!) Steve Badger has some good online O8 material at www.playwinningpoker.com, and Annie Duke has some linked to the Ultimate Bet website. I'd recommend checking their stuff out. | ||
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| Re: Confused about low hands, shorn, 22. May 2003 09:17 | ||
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| on 22. May 2003 08:56 Wren wrote: > Omaha-8's a great game. Beginners tend to find it fun right away, despite their > confusion (which is inevitable, in making the transition from hold'em). You should > definitely introduce it to your friends, but play for very small stakes so that the > ultra-newbie mistakes (eg trying to use one hole card to complete a flush) don't end > up costing anyone a lot of money. We always announce "2 and only 2" or "must use 2" when we play each hand to avoid the ultra-newbie mistakes. Has worked so far... | ||
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| Re: Confused about low hands, Snorbolus, 22. May 2003 09:41 | ||
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| We generally chant "two from the hand, three from the board" as we deal the turn and river cards. Even then we sometimes get players showing down flushes and full houses only to discover they were counting on 4 from the board. We play for pretty low stakes, so this type of thing just adds to the hilarity of the evening. Thanks to all respondents, Snorbolus on 22. May 2003 09:17 shorn wrote: > on 22. May 2003 08:56 Wren wrote: > > Omaha-8's a great game. Beginners tend to find it fun right away, despite their > > confusion (which is inevitable, in making the transition from hold'em). You should > > definitely introduce it to your friends, but play for very small stakes so that the > > ultra-newbie mistakes (eg trying to use one hole card to complete a flush) don't end > > up costing anyone a lot of money. > > We always announce "2 and only 2" or "must use 2" when we play each hand to avoid the > ultra-newbie mistakes. Has worked so far... | ||
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| Re: Confused about low hands, shorn, 22. May 2003 09:45 | ||
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| Me too because there is always one sucker who tries to play his hand that way. One question...how do u handle 4 of a kind with 3 on the board if the other two board cards are higher than any in the case-holder's hand? Do you allow it to be 4OAK or just trips? We always have trouble with that one. | ||
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| Re: Confused about low hands, Snorbolus, 22. May 2003 10:37 | ||
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| If the game was at my place (so that I got final say), I would rule "best five card hand using exactly two from the hand and three from the board". Therefore, if no other player could make a better 4 of a kind or a straight flush (using two from their hand and three from the board), the player with the case card wins it. I would need to hear a pretty persuasive arguement before I changed my mind on that one. Snorbolus on 22. May 2003 09:45 shorn wrote: > Me too because there is always one sucker who tries to play his hand that way. > > One question...how do u handle 4 of a kind with 3 on the board if the other two board cards are > higher than any in the case-holder's hand? Do you allow it to be 4OAK or just trips? We always > have trouble with that one. | ||
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| Re: Confused about low hands, shorn, 22. May 2003 10:39 | ||
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| I like it! I will try that at our next game... | ||
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| Re: Confused about low hands, Wren, 22. May 2003 11:03 | ||
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| Of course the player has quads...why would the fact that the other board cards are higher be of any relevance? He uses the trips on board with his case card, and then the second highest card from his hand for his "kicker" (not that the kicker matters as he's the only one with the quads). Unless I'm misunderstanding the situation that you're asking about...? | ||
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| Re: Confused about low hands, TKarrde, 22. May 2003 11:17 | ||
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| Cool.... I'm on the same wave length as Wren! :) | ||
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| Re: Confused about low hands, TKarrde, 22. May 2003 11:16 | ||
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| Why would you only have trips? You use two cards from your hand. The case card, and then your next highest card. Not that it would matter because no one else would have 4 of a kind of the same rank. This could only be beaten by another quad made from a pair on the board that is bigger or a straight-flush. Or am I confused on the question? TK | ||
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| Re: Confused about low hands, stdioh, 22. May 2003 11:39 | ||
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| Of course it is 4 of a kind. K523 with a board of KKKA4 makes KKKK5 for quads. There's nothing to say you need to have the ace as your kicker. | ||
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| Re: Confused about low hands, stdioh, 22. May 2003 11:37 | ||
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| I always here things like, "You never said there was no low possible. I thought I had the nut low. That's no fair." ... when they are holding A2 and the board is 334K4 or some such monstrosity. | ||
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| Re: Confused about low hands, Roy Cooke, 22. May 2003 13:42 | ||
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| Yes...you can.....Good Luck :-) Roy Cooke on 22. May 2003 07:37 Snorbolus wrote: > A very basic question but I don't play high/low games so please humor me. In a > game, such as Omaha8, where you have more than 5 cards available from which to > make your hand can you select any of those cards towards a low hand - just as > you could towards a high? > > Of course, in omaha, you have to use exactly 2 from your hand and 3 from the > board but, within that confine, can you take any available 5 card hand? > Specifically: you have A2KK and the board is 346 2 K. Can you take A2 346 as > your low? It seems to me that you should be able to, but I am confused because I > often read about players "busting out by pairing one of their low cards". > > Does this mean that they didn't yet have a complete low hand and the paired low > card simply didn't help (in the same way that a queen wouldn't have either), or > is there some weird rule that if there is a low pair available to you then you > have to include it? > > I ask because I am becoming increasingly interested in omaha. We have been > playing quite a bit of omaha high only in my home game. I am surprised and > delighted by just how terrible, even reasonably sound, hold'em players are at > omaha. Also, omaha seems to appeal to the "gamble it up" sort of players who > normally prefer mulit-wildcard games that are much too complicated for me to > have any sort of an edge in. I think that these guys might like omaha8 even > better. > > Snorbolus | ||
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