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Server Time: 8/29/2008 9:00:11 PM PACIFIC |
 3 flush / 3 draw -7 card stud strategy, kaleb2000, 21. May 2003 20:49 | ||
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| Just curious... In seven card stud, if you are dealt a 3 card flush or straight (low cards -so only chance of winning realistically is if you hit the 5 card str8 or flush what is your general strategy? Given the odds of making your hand with 4 more cards coming are about 5.7:1 maybe a little better if more cards are known, even still, this would make me think that I wouldn't want to even risk one bet in order to see the 4th card unless there where 6 other people in the pot. Even then, it still is only even odds. Having a 3 flush is real similar situation. Every book I've read says that if you have a 3 str8 or 3 flush you should see one more card. Am I wrong to add to this that you should only do this also if there are 6 people that called? Giving you pot odds? Help if I'm off base :) Thanks for all the past advice!! | ||
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| Re: 3 flush / 3 draw -7 card stud strategy, Mark, 21. May 2003 21:24 | ||
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| > Just curious... In seven card stud, if you are dealt a 3 card flush or straight > (low cards -so only chance of winning realistically is if you hit the 5 card > str8 or flush what is your general strategy? Given the odds of making your hand > with 4 more cards coming are about 5.7:1 maybe a little better if more cards are > known, even still, this would make me think that I wouldn't want to even risk > one bet in order to see the 4th card unless there where 6 other people in the > pot. Even then, it still is only even odds. Having a 3 flush is real similar > situation. Every book I've read says that if you have a 3 str8 or 3 flush you > should see one more card. Am I wrong to add to this that you should only do > this also if there are 6 people that called? Giving you pot odds? Help if I'm > off base :) Thanks for all the past advice!! you do not necessarily need 6 people to call to give you pot odds. first off, if there is an ante, that will usually make up 1 to 2 bets. And if you make your draw you can expect to get a double bet (or 2 ) later in the hand. Right there, that is (consevatively) 3 bets accounted for, plus the bring in, making it 4. You need to consider not just current pot odds, but also potential pot odds. If the game is passive in the early rounds, you should generally see 4th street against 2 or more opponents (note* no more than 3 of you 16 straight cards should be out, no more than 2 flush cards). If on 4th, you don't catch a good card, i would muck the str8. Some literature suggests calling a single bet with an unimproved 3 flush here, as much as 40% of the time if you likely have the only flush draw. The reasoning is that it is still a cheap street and a flush is a big hand. Generally, against double raises i would muck the low straight but play the 3 flush if it was very live (no more than 1 flush card out). Against very loose aggressive opponents I may play the str8 for a raise or 2 if it has a 2 flush that is live, but I would need to catch perfect on 4th to see 5th. Mark | ||
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| Re: 3 flush / 3 draw -7 card stud strategy, timmer, 22. May 2003 06:37 | ||
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| on 21. May 2003 21:24 Mark wrote: > > Just curious... In seven card stud, if you are dealt a 3 card flush or straight > > (low cards -so only chance of winning realistically is if you hit the 5 card > > str8 or flush what is your general strategy? Given the odds of making your hand > > with 4 more cards coming are about 5.7:1 maybe a little better if more cards are > > > known, even still, this would make me think that I wouldn't want to even risk > > one bet in order to see the 4th card unless there where 6 other people in the > > pot. Even then, it still is only even odds. Having a 3 flush is real similar > > situation. Every book I've read says that if you have a 3 str8 or 3 flush you > > should see one more card. Am I wrong to add to this that you should only do > > this also if there are 6 people that called? Giving you pot odds? Help if I'm > > off base :) Thanks for all the past advice!! > > you do not necessarily need 6 people to call to give you pot odds. first off, if > there is an ante, that will usually make up 1 to 2 bets. And if you make your draw > you can expect to get a double bet (or 2 ) later in the hand. Right there, that is > (consevatively) 3 bets accounted for, plus the bring in, making it 4. > > You need to consider not just current pot odds, but also potential pot odds. If the > game is passive in the early rounds, you should generally see 4th street against 2 or > more opponents (note* no more than 3 of you 16 straight cards should be out, no more > than 2 flush cards). > > If on 4th, you don't catch a good card, i would muck the str8. Some literature > suggests calling a single bet with an unimproved 3 flush here, as much as 40% of the > time if you likely have the only flush draw. The reasoning is that it is still a > cheap street and a flush is a big hand. > > Generally, against double raises i would muck the low straight but play the 3 flush > if it was very live (no more than 1 flush card out). > Against very loose aggressive opponents I may play the str8 for a raise or 2 if it > has a 2 flush that is live, but I would need to catch perfect on 4th to see 5th. > > Mark This is why many of the better players recommend that Most players play only high open ended str8s (89T, 9TJ, TJQ) even better if they contain live suited connecteds. And quality ( live with high card(s) ) flush draws | ||
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| Re: 3 flush / 3 draw -7 card stud strategy, stdioh, 22. May 2003 08:25 | ||
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| There are other ways to win than making your straight or flush. For instance if you have 4h5h6s and draw one card to get an 8h you now have a gutshot with a backdoor flush draw. Then, depending on how live the 7 is and how live the hearts are and how much gets bet, you can think about staying in the hand or leaving. Likewise, if you have 456 and take a card off, there is a chance at a free ride to 5th street if you don't hit. I've had something like 4s5h6d get hit with running 4's and all of a sudden I've got a made hand in quite a way that I didn't expect. So when deciding to peel off a card, you should think about the liveness of your straight or flush cards in terms of your chance of making trips. Long story short, there are more factors in your hand than *just* your chance of making your straight. The most important thing to look at still, is how many of your cards that you need to hit have been exposed to the table. If you see door cards of 7, 7, 8, 3, Q, K, A and you are holding [45]6 then you may as well just throw that puppy away. The top end of the straight is missing 3 of its outs already, the bottom end is missing 1 out, and the middle of it is missing 3 outs. Basically there is no way you're going to have odds to see a fifth card unless you hit your 2 outer to a 7 on fourth street, so don't bother. Even if you did hit your seven and aren't counterfeited for your straight on 4th street, you only will have 6 outs so it's not like you'll be on a really good draw. | ||
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| Re: 3 flush / 3 draw -7 card stud strategy, 4 POKER, 27. May 2003 00:13 | ||
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| Three low cards to a straight are NOT profitable holdings in seven card stud. With all the other cards that are dealt to the other players you are almost for certain starting out with the lowest cards in the deck and MUST improve your draw by fourth street. You can't just take a card off on fourth street whenever you feel that the pot may be giving you the odds to do so. Straights are very hard to complete in the first place and to enter the pot with three low cards doesn't even allow you to hit one of your cards on fourth or fifth street to pair up and give you extra outs to the hand. Example, you start with 4,5,6 and than catch a pair on fourth street and continue to play this hand through for another card. Well that is just compounding to that inferior starting even more. Someone may already have an overpair to start with (and most likely somebody will), so to even continue to draw to the low straight holdings you must hit the perfect card on fourth street and you also have to make sure that your hand is totally "live" to hit. If you started with a high straight draw like 10,J,Q and made a pair on fourth or fifth street at least you give yourself another out to the hand because a high pair may be the best hand at the time and if you still have live cards to complete your straight draw than you have increased your outs even more. The same theory should apply to playing low card flush draws. You should always be looking for additional outs to your hand so if you play high flush cards to start and pair up on the earlier betting rounds you may have the best hand and can still continue drawing and taking a card off.(you will have many more outs to win the hand as opposed to if you played the low flush cards and paired up along the way). Small pairs are real underdogs in seven card stud and are moneylosers when played against a larger field so keep that in mind when you play those low drawing hands and pair up. The three low cards to a straight flush like 4,5,6 of hearts may look real pretty but in all reality they are not. Players may have a harder time mucking this particular holding when there is exteme betting on third street simply because their hand is not only suited, it is also a straight flush draw. Those holdings rarely complete themselves the way you would like them to and that is why they are not as profitable as they may seem to appear. If someone else in the hand is drawing to a flush and you both catch "good" on fourth street, believe it or not your hand is in danger. And if you decide to "take a card off" because the pot is giving you correct odds to do so, you will have to hit two very perfect cards on fifth and sixth street and if someone else has completed a flush of their own, you will be a huge underdog even if you picked up the straight flush draw. High flush draws(ones containing at least a King, preferably an Ace), will be much more profitable in the long run for those holdings give you more outs to making the best hand(higher pairs and/or higher flushes against players who have made an inferior flush. Stick to playing high drawing hands and high pairs when playing seven card stud. And if the game your playing in is a fairly tight game than your high pairs will have much more value than a drawing hand will. Also keep in mind that when you play stud, you yourself should be doing a lot of the betting and a lot of the raising as to try and drive players out and allow yourself to win with a pair or to give yourself a chance to win the hand by just the threat of your board alone.(this can be achieved when you play high drawing hands because many players will be threatened when a high board is staring them in the face). *** If you find yourself calling too often during the hand(and that is what you will be doing if you play too many of those low drawing hands), than you are playing too loose in this game.{I am talking about anybody, and am not referring to the person who wrote this post so just keep that in mind when I speak, okay}? But whatever hand you are drawing to you must make sure that your hand is completely "live" from all directions.(if you are playing a hand like 9,10,J, than you must make sure that not only are the 8's and the Q's live, but the 7's and the K's are live as well. The J's 10's and 9's should also be fairly live and that is why these drawing hands are difficult to play for too much betting on the earlier rounds; they really have to be live from all angles). 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: 3 flush / 3 draw -7 card stud strategy, stdioh, 27. May 2003 09:51 | ||
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| That is a truely excellent post 4. Thanks so much for the contribution. Very well thought out. | ||
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| Re: 3 flush / 3 draw -7 card stud strategy, 4 POKER, 27. May 2003 15:50 | ||
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| Thank you very much Stdioh. 4 | ||
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| Re: 3 flush / 3 draw -7 card stud strategy, kaleb2000, 27. May 2003 19:35 | ||
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| I appreciate your insight and advice. The strategy you propose is excellent input. The sight I play at keeps track of times seen 4th st and wins when 4th st seen. Do you think that 20% of the time seeing 4thsounds about right for a strategy like this? I guess I always thought that since the price to see 4th st is so low -1$ at a 3/6 table, that you should take another off. But If I understand your logic all the way, even if you do make the 4 card str8, it might make it a very large loss either way. For one, you might not get the last card while someone sucks 2 big bets out of you plus a couple little ones and 2) even if you do get it, it's not a sure win. Any other str8 kills it as well as a flush. Thanks again for your insight -just curious... how long have you been playing? Do you play 7card stud a lot? | ||
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