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Server Time: 11/20/2009 8:03:01 PM PACIFIC |
 How to calculate pot odds?, bruh, 21. May 2003 06:47 | ||
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| Can anyone out there tell me (the simpler the terms, the better) a way to calculate pot odds? Math isn't necessarily my strongest skills, so the simpler the better. Also, on the same subject, how much/often do pot odds play into a decision to make a call? Knowing what little I do about pot odds, it seems like this may be an "excuse" to call a hand when you know you're behind? Any info will be appreciated. | ||
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| Re: How to calculate pot odds?, shorn, 21. May 2003 07:24 | ||
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| By definition, calculating pot odds are something that you do when deciding whether or not to call a bet. You compare the chances of the next card completing your hand to the # of bets in the pot. If the chances of hitting your hand are more than (or equal to) the number of bets in the pot, then you can call. If not, then you should fold. You SHOULD NOT use pot odds to talk yourself into marginal calls; rather you should use them to AVOID marginal calls. An example: You are playing hold'em and hold AK of hearts. The flop comes with two hearts in it so you have a draw to the nut flush. How much $$ needs to be in the pot for you to continue? You have seen 5 cards (your AK + 3 on the flop), so there are 47 unseen (by you) cards left in the deck. 9 of those cards make you the flush and 38 do not. So, the chances that you will make your flush on the next card are 38/9 against. This translates into 4.22 to 1. So, you would need at least 4x the amount you need to call in the pot to call with "correct" odds (so if it is $5 to you, there should be at least $20 in the pot). Now, this obviously is an extreme example because you may have "extra" outs with this hand (an Ace or King for example), so you might be able to call with less than $20 in the pot. But, we will save that discussion for another day. To improve your game, you MUST always be aware of the odds that you will hit your hand versus how much money is in the pot. Over time, the most common draws (flushes, straights) you will know by heart and your action will become rote. But, it is good practive to calculate odds in every pot for certain ahnds, even those in which you don't participate, for practice. Finally, you mentioned "using odds to make calls that you shouldn't when you are behind." This is a danger that is good that you recognize. Take our AKs example above. If there is a pair on the board and two hearts, then you could make your flush and still lose to a boat. So, in this case you need more $$ in the pot to call to make it worth your while. Or, let's say you have T9 of hearts instead of AK. If there are numerous players in with you, then your flush might not be good if you hit it. Again, you need better than 4/1 to call here (indeed, even with better odds you may fold anyway due to the action that you see which would indicate that someone else may be drawing to the higher flush). These are things that willcome with lots of experience at the tables. I hope this helped some. Good luck. | ||
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| Re: How to calculate pot odds?, Huck, 21. May 2003 07:36 | ||
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| Lee Jones' "Winning Low Limit HoldEm" has a brief section on how to calculate pot odds. He gives a couple of short examples in terms that are easy to understand (though shorn does a good job explaining it, too). This book is very good overall, so it's worth having in you poker library. | ||
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| Re: How to calculate pot odds?, mkpoker, 21. May 2003 14:49 | ||
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| In Shorn's great post, his answer prompts another question. In example given (holding AKh with a flop with 2 additional hearts), your odds of making the flush *on the next card* is 4.2:1, but your odds of making the flush *by the river* is closer to 2.3:1. Which ratio represents your "odds" for purposes of calculating pot odds? If, on the turn, the pot is paying 3:1 should you call? (And BTW, Shorn, I've learned a lot from your posts on this board, thx.) | ||
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| Re: How to calculate pot odds?, shorn, 22. May 2003 05:00 | ||
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| mkpoker- Glad that my posts have helped you. I will tell you how I handle the situation that you have presented, although i know there are those who may disagree with me. I only like to use the 4.22 to 1 number when figuring our whether to call a bet (and not the 2.3 to 1 number) on the flop because I don't ever want to assume that "I am going to the river no matter what" with any hand. IMHO, I think that using the 2.3 to 1 number on the flop is a -EV play over time...you will be leaking bets that you shouldn't. Again, this example is a little extreme because of those extra outs you may have, but more often than not, I will not call with a four flush if there are only two bets in the pot. Why? A few things to consider: Making this call assumes that if the flush card doesn't come on the turn that what DOES come doesn't hurt you (i.e., a total blank comes). In other words, you are betting on the fact that you have two clean shots to get your heart. But what happens if the turn card pairs the board? I don't consider that a blank because now I may lose to a full boat even if the heart does come. So, I prefer to re-evaluate on every street. Secondly, what are the implied odds for the hand? This has to do with how many players are in the pot and whether or not those players will pay me off when I hit. It also (and this is important) has to do with whether or not the board has potential for making a second best hand that will pay me off with my flush. If the board is Qh6c2h with two hearts, then I am less likely to see a heart card that someone can make a second best hand with (except maybe the J). This negatively affects my implied odds if I hit. One thing that I have found is that board texture is always extremely important when making marginal decisions. In your question about 3:1 on the turn, we can safely assume that there are at least 2 other players in the hand. What kind of players are they? Calling stations? Smart players who will fold 2nd or 3rd pair if the heart comes? I need to know the answers to this before making that call at 3:1. I don't want you to think that you can never call for your flush when there are only 3 bets in the pot. However, you need to consider the above factors (and if you have any extra outs like in the example) before saying "ah hell, it's close enough" and throwing in the chips. Good luck. Steve | ||
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| Re: How to calculate pot odds?, bruh, 21. May 2003 15:05 | ||
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| Shorn, Thanks a lot for your post. You pretty much answered the question I was asking and that should help me a lot once I get some real-life practice doing this. Thanks again. Mike | ||
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| Re: How to calculate pot odds?, shorn, 22. May 2003 05:00 | ||
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| Bruh- My pleasure. Good luck with it and let us know how you are making out. Steve | ||
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| Re: How to calculate pot odds?, Snorbolus, 21. May 2003 08:01 | ||
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| To calculate pot odds: simply look at the total amount of money currently in the pot and compare it to the amount that you are about to put at risk. A simple example: in a limit hold'em game, you raise from the button after it has been folded to you. The small blind folds and the big blind calls. Then the big blind bets out on the flop. When you look at the pot you see 5.5 small bets (2 from you, 2 from the big blind, 0.5 from the folded small blind and the 1 bet into you on the flop - this is an unraked game). It will cost you 1 small bet to call. Therefore if you call you will be getting 5.5:1 pot odds. How can you use this information? If you have a good draw, lets say an open ended, nut straight draw, but you believe that your opponent currently has you beaten; in an unraked game, you can still call. This is because there are 47 unseen cards (52 in the pack - the 2 in your hand and the 3 on the board), 8 will make your straight and 39 will not. Therefore you are a 1:4.9 (8:39) underdog to make your hand on the turn and the pot is laying you 5.5:1 odds. Here is the trick though: In the above example there were 8 cards that would help you and 39 that would not. What you really want is for there to be 39 cards that help you and 8 that do not. Lets reverse the positions. Your opponent bets into you. This time you believe that he is on a straight draw (no flush possible), and you have an overpair. Now, the pot is still laying you 5.5:1 odds but you are a 4.9:1 favorite to win. This time you might consider raising, this puts your opponent in a bad situation. He will be looking at 7.5:1 pot odds to call your raise but, if he does this, he will (in total) have invested 2 bets on the flop to try for an 8.5 bet pot. Therefore, even though the big blind had sufficent pot odds to bet out with his draw, by raising with the best of it, you have forced him to make a mistake. This is the danger of relying on pot odds and not considering future action. Pot odds are usefull and you must consider them but you must also think about future action. This is often called the implied odds. These are more speculative and harder to figure out but, once you have mastered pot odds, you need to begin thinking about implied odds. Hope this helps a little and goes some way to address your concerns about using pot odds as an "excuse" to bet or call with a hand when you know you're behind. Snorbolus | ||
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| Re: How to calculate pot odds?, MozMan, 21. May 2003 08:47 | ||
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| To add just one thought to the other replies to your post... here is a simple explanation of why you are calculating pot odds (and why it will help you avoid marginal calls)... One of the examples above points out that you are a 4:1 dog to make your flush draw.... this means that for every 4 times you have the flush draw, you will only make the flush once. If you are only investing in pots that will pay 4:1 or better, then that one time you make it will pay for the three times you didn't make it... obvoiusly, the higher the pot-odds, the more gravy you get in the deal too... Hope that helps too. Moz | ||
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| Re: How to calculate pot odds?, MozMan, 21. May 2003 08:47 | ||
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| To add just one thought to the other replies to your post... here is a simple explanation of why you are calculating pot odds (and why it will help you avoid marginal calls)... One of the examples above points out that you are a 4:1 dog to make your flush draw.... this means that for every 4 times you have the flush draw, you will only make the flush once. If you are only investing in pots that will pay 4:1 or better, then that one time you make it will pay for the three times you didn't make it... obvoiusly, the higher the pot-odds, the more gravy you get in the deal too... Hope that helps too. Moz | ||
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| Re: How to calculate pot odds?, MozMan, 21. May 2003 08:48 | ||
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| Sorry guys, didn't mean to post twice. I was too impatient after clickin ght ebutton the first time. | ||
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