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Server Time: 9/6/2008 4:02:35 PM PACIFIC |
 One of THOSE nights, MozMan, 19. May 2003 12:21 | ||
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| This is actually kind of amusing, and an illustration of how quickly things can go bad... I entered a cheap ($5) NL Hold'em tourny online on Saturday night, and only lasted four hands! This is how it happened: First hand, I'm one right of the button (great position to start, yay!). Blinds are 10/20 to start. I'm dealt pocket 7s. Several limp in to me, I raise minium (40); some call, some fold, including the button, so I am now last. Board is shooting blanks (not even overcards, everone keeps checking to me, I keep betting... but NO ONE is folding... I really want my 7s against fewer players... sure unuf, I end up beat by pocket 9s that played passive. Second hand, I get AK. Raise the blinds, get it down to four players. Flop misses me completely. I'm not last to act, so I take the free card on the turn when it's checked to me, and the guy after me checks too. Turn pairs the board and someone comes out fast, so I fold. Third hand, I get QQ... NOW I'm cooking with gas, right? Getting fairly low on chips, but not too worried yet, raise the blind 200, the big blind cold-calls, everyone else folds. Flop misses me again. Big Blind goes all-in. I fold, he shows me rockets (glad I folded!) Fourth and final hand: I get AQ. Getting low on chips (about 380) Raise blind to 40, one call from an early position. Flop comes 2, Q, 9. Other player checks, I bet half my chips. He sandbags me, and raises the rest of my chips. I make the mistake of calling, cuz I'm thinking he has a Q, but my kicker is better. He has Q9 for 2-pair, turn and river are blanks and I'm out. ugh... what a night... | ||
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| Re: One of THOSE nights, shorn, 19. May 2003 12:24 | ||
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| Hey, at least it only cost you $6...that's what, $1.50 a hand?! :) Sounds like your post should have been titled "One of THOSE 8 minute sessions"...(j/k) | ||
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| Re: One of THOSE nights, MozMan, 19. May 2003 12:31 | ||
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| LOL! Very true! Yes, it really doesn't upset me that much, because it was really a cheap education... | ||
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| Re: One of THOSE nights, Big_Slick, 19. May 2003 12:34 | ||
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| I hate nights like that... I feel your pain! | ||
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| Re: One of THOSE nights, Easy E, 19. May 2003 12:46 | ||
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| on 19. May 2003 12:21 MozMan wrote: I'm dealt pocket 7s. Several limp in to me, I raise minium > (40); some call, some fold, including the button, so I am now last. Board is > shooting blanks (not even overcards, everone keeps checking to me, I keep > betting... but NO ONE is folding... I really want my 7s against fewer players... > sure unuf, I end up beat by pocket 9s that played passive. Is it me, or did you overplay (or maybe underplay) your hand? the board was all 6-2, if what you said is correct... If everyone called your raise AND called the flop, don't they rate to pose SOME risk to your tiny overpair? And, given the fact that your overpair is SEVENS, shouldn't you have either given up on it OR gone over the top with it? Granted, the nines probably would have knocked you out, but they didn't have any good redraws, except to their set, and you should have had straight draws to work with. | ||
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| Re: One of THOSE nights, MozMan, 19. May 2003 12:59 | ||
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| Hey don't get me wrong, I KNOW that at least 60% of the reason I only went four hands was because I made some serious mistakes... a little bad luck was just the icing on the cake. As far as that hand goes, I think you are absolutely correct! This was the first BIG lesson in my cheap education. I wasn't playing my straight-draw properly, because I kept seeing the possibility that someone else had a straight draw. I was betting the 7s, hoping to make them pay to play their draws, but I had that sinking feeling that something was wrong, so I wasn't betting too heavily. I know I should listen to that little voice that tells me whne to lay down, I just didn't do it... As it turns out, going over the top might have worked, as I might have scared pocket 9s out of it and won the hand... but the proper thing to do probably would have been check-fold... I might have seen one more hand that way! :) on 19. May 2003 12:46 Easy E wrote: > Is it me, or did you overplay (or maybe underplay) your hand? the board was all > 6-2, if what you said is correct... If everyone called your raise AND called the > flop, don't they rate to pose SOME risk to your tiny overpair? > And, given the fact that your overpair is SEVENS, shouldn't you have either given > up on it OR gone over the top with it? Granted, the nines probably would have > knocked you out, but they didn't have any good redraws, except to their set, and you > should have had straight draws to work with. | ||
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| Re: One of THOSE nights, Easy E, 19. May 2003 18:37 | ||
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| Wouldn't have been worth it- after the marathon session you put in, adding another 2 minutes would have killed you..... I know, you feel SOOOOO lucky! | ||
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| Re: One of THOSE nights, stdioh, 20. May 2003 10:50 | ||
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| > I entered a cheap ($5) NL Hold'em tourny online on Saturday night, and only > lasted four hands! This is how it happened: I play these tournaments sometimes and they are very easy to beat. I money in over half of them so pretty much any time I make second or first it is free money. The way to beat these is to play like a rock until the blinds get big and the biggest fools have lost. Then play a good shorthanded game against the little fools and odd good player who are left. > First hand, I'm one right of the button (great position to start, yay!). Blinds > are 10/20 to start. I'm dealt pocket 7s. Several limp in to me, I raise minium > (40); some call, some fold, including the button, so I am now last. Board is > shooting blanks (not even overcards, everone keeps checking to me, I keep > betting... but NO ONE is folding... I really want my 7s against fewer players... > sure unuf, I end up beat by pocket 9s that played passive. You played this completely wrong. With 77 you either want it heads up and all-in or you want lots of players. You want the blinds in. You just call here and then follow the no-set no-bet rule. If your 77 is over the entire board, then you'll want to maybe think about making one pot sized bet when it is checked around to you. Then you either take the pot down then and there or you get reraised and you can fold without losing too much. If you get a call, time to cool your jets and hope that are a dumbunny with top pair top kicker. Once you raise preflop and don't hit anything, again you shouldn't be making little bets that can be called by chasers. Either make a big bet or make no bets. With 77 that hits nothing, you're probably best off just sitting and letting the hand slide by. Chips you lose hurt you much more at this point than chips you win help you. > Third hand, I get QQ... NOW I'm cooking with gas, right? Getting fairly low on > chips, but not too worried yet, raise the blind 200, the big blind cold-calls, > everyone else folds. Flop misses me again. Big Blind goes all-in. I fold, he > shows me rockets (glad I folded!) Why are you raising by 200 this early? If you make a massive raise like that, only hands that beat you are going to come in. Obviously the guy reraising you has AA or KK. If somebody just calls you then you run the risk of AA or KK slowplaying you because they peg you as a bad player and want you to think you have the best of it. I have a feeling that the table does not look upon you favourably, so use that to your advantage instead of your detriment. In NL Hold'em tournaments there is almost never a reason to make a bet bigger than the size of the pot. > Fourth and final hand: I get AQ. Getting low on chips (about 380) Raise blind > to 40, one call from an early position. Flop comes 2, Q, 9. Other player checks, > I bet half my chips. He sandbags me, and raises the rest of my chips. I make the > mistake of calling, cuz I'm thinking he has a Q, but my kicker is better. He has > Q9 for 2-pair, turn and river are blanks and I'm out. Why would you make a minimum raise preflop? Only bad bad poker players tend to do that unless in late position in an uncalled hand. You are inviting the bad players to call you with crap. Now it is nice to face Q9 when you have AQ, but it is better to just have AQ steal the blinds. Raise it to 3X the BB and see where that takes you. Though with your small stack, you're better off waiting for a better hand to play. Now when you hit your queen and bet big, being a preflop raiser, nobody with any sense will raise that bet unless they have 1 pair beat. So your only option here is to fold unless you have the vast majority of your chips in the pot already and are forced all-in by the odds. > ugh... what a night... To make a long story short, you got what you deserved. You might still be a profit making player on the UB sit-n-gos because they are just so fishy, but your NL tournament game needs a lot of work. I hope you don't take my critisism too harshly. I've been pretty blunt and maybe even down right mean, but I don't mean it personally. I just want to jar you into rethinking your tournament strategy a little. | ||
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| Re: One of THOSE nights, MozMan, 20. May 2003 10:58 | ||
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| > I hope you don't take my critisism too harshly. I've been pretty blunt and maybe > even down right mean, but I don't mean it personally. I just want to jar you into > rethinking your tournament strategy a little. Oh, HELL no! This is exactly the kind of specific feedback I was hoping for! I've been playing ring games for some time, but I'm very new to tourneys. I can tell right away that's it's a very different game that way, but don't have the experience to know how I played it wrong. Thank you for being honest and specific. It really gives me something to chew on and apply. | ||
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| Re: One of THOSE nights, stdioh, 20. May 2003 15:06 | ||
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| What makes a NL tourney very different from a limit ring game is that your mistakes are greatly amplified as are your good moves. Therefore a ring game leak becomes a tourney torrent. For example if you play something like A8o in mid position in a ring game you will occasionally get punnished for it, but try playing that in a NL tourney and it'll bit you much more often and much worse. You'll have a hard time getting callers when you are good and you'll have the pants beat off you when you are no good. It is mainly due to the no-limit-ness of it all. When you can make a big bet, you take away people's pot odds to chase their draws and it become a game of made hands much more than limit. Knowing when to bluff also becomes more important. But probably the most important of all is being appropriately agressive. It is much better to fling out a big bet on the flop when you're not sure if you are good and maybe take it down there with the best hand (or maybe take it down with the second best hand) than it is to let people catch up. Because in a tourney your last few chips are worth so much more than your additional chips, you're usually better taking down a pot without callers unless you hold the eternal nuts. To make a long story short, to play tournaments well, you need to have iron guts, a strong will, and knowledge of playable hands...which are close to but not equal to playable hands in a limit cash game. Good luck on building your tournament game...I'm looking forward to you impressing me by the time the UPF tourney gets under way. | ||
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| Re: One of THOSE nights, MozMan, 20. May 2003 15:31 | ||
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| ok, let me see if I get this... it sounds like there is more of a duality to dealt hands in NL tourney play... so if I have the A8o that you mentioned early on with lots of players still in, and chip stacks still relatively close, then it's no more, and probably even less, playable than in a ring-game... but if I have something like that toward the end, when the game is very short-handed (2-3 players) then it gains enough strength to warrant an all-in move before flop... because it's unlikely that one or two other players will have anything at the same time. But then, does that mean that it also has a short life? Am I basically scrawed if I find myself looking at a flop with A8o in this situation? (though I guess that's moot, as I'm all-in anyway and no longer have any control)... Hey- thanx for the info... I love this stuff... and I'll see if I can't impress the pants off ya in our tourney! :) | ||
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| Re: One of THOSE nights, stdioh, 21. May 2003 08:57 | ||
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| Well, A8o is a raising hand three handed whether in a cash limit game on in a NL hold'em game. What matters is stack size. If you are a big stack and the other two are small, you want to let one bust the other so you will throw A8o away if you get big action back against your raise. Maybe you'll just throw it away in general...depends on style, read, etc. Now if you have a small stack and need to chip up to have a shot against two bigger stacks and it is three handed with opressive blinds, then this is an all-in hand. You might take the blinds and that is just fine and you might get a caller who sees your desperation and calls you with KQ or something like that, a worse ace. Even getting called with a pair, you have a chance of doubling through. It is fragile however, so it is the sort of hand you want to get all-in with now. Same with small pairs. 22 isn't a great hand preflop in a cash game, but in a shorthanded endgame of a tourney it is just fine. As long as an opponent doesn't have a wired pair, you are a favourite to win...well, I think you are a slight dog to suited connectors, but basically your opponent needs to hit his hand to win and has less than a 50% chance of making a pair. So again you can steal the blinds with your all-in bet and if you get called by AK you're coin flipping to double up or get up. There are times when this is a very appropriate move, but those times are when you are desperate or you are pushing around a player who is desperate (and losing won't hurt you much). | ||
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| Re: One of THOSE nights, MozMan, 21. May 2003 09:04 | ||
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| Ahh, I see... ya see, this is another area where my lack of experience really comes in. When I play ring games at the casino, the tables are ALWAYS full. I have played there through the night before and still have never played with more that two open seats... at any rate, I have little experience with short-handed play. Thanx for the explanation! As always, eloquent and specific... if any of it sinks in, I may just be ready to take some of your chips by the UPF tourney! ;) | ||
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| Re: One of THOSE nights, stdioh, 21. May 2003 14:13 | ||
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| Yeah...but you don't ever want to play shorthanded in a casino under normal circumstances. The exception is when you are against giant fish, but that has balances in place too. Basically, the fewer the players, the swingier you are, the more painful is the rake/session fee, and the more each player's strengths and weaknesses are amplified. I'll play heads up at the casino with a complete moron, but anybody who knows anything about playing sits down with me alone and the only winner will be the house. Now in home games, short handed tables can be really proffitable...especially if you have a good game. I was playing 5 handed omaha8 on the weekend with 2 big omaha fish and two guys who had literally never played before. And Omaha really punishes people for chasing second. Long story short, I would have hated anybody from joining in and muscling in on my racket - but no rake so no worries. | ||
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| Re: One of THOSE nights, Big_Slick, 20. May 2003 13:00 | ||
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| Good Stuff, stdoih. | ||
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| Re: One of THOSE nights, stdioh, 20. May 2003 15:06 | ||
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| thanks. | ||
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