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Server Time: 11/20/2009 10:49:32 PM PACIFIC |
 Phil Hellmuth" new book., Roy Seider, 17. May 2003 20:23 | ||
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| I tried to play Phil Hellmuth's top 10 hold em hands the way he suggests in his new book. I got crushed! Anyone else read the book? What did I do wrong? | ||
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| Re: Phil Hellmuth" new book., Big_Slick, 17. May 2003 21:34 | ||
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| Phil recommends these hands as a starting point for beginners (you've got to start somewhere, right?) As you now know, there is much more to hold 'em than simply sitting tight and playing the best starting hands. There is no magic to the top 10 hands he recommends.. if there was, we'd all be rich. | ||
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| Re: Phil Hellmuth" new book., Roy Seider, 18. May 2003 09:50 | ||
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| Ok but are those really the top ten hands? This disagrees with most other poker books. Also raising and reraising with 88 or 77. Raising on the flop with 2 overcards out there? These are my main questions. What do you think? | ||
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| Re: Phil Hellmuth" new book., Guru, 18. May 2003 11:04 | ||
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| I read Phil's book. He does disagree pretty most other accepted advice on the top hands. He is really a fan of pairs, no doubt. I think you have to take a lot of his advice with a grain of salt. I believe that the advic he gives is a real reflection of how he plays, but you really have to take context into account. At Phil's level of play, pairs hold up much better because top pros are less willing to run drawing hands down to the river for thousands of dollars. In your 2/4 home game, people will play any prayer until the river. In low limit games two face cards are much stronger overall. | ||
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| Re: Phil Hellmuth" new book., Guru, 18. May 2003 11:06 | ||
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| By the way, I can't type and play at the same time. Sorry about the sloppy last message. | ||
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| Re: Phil Hellmuth" new book., Carl Heydman, 18. May 2003 12:43 | ||
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| Amen to that. | ||
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| Re: Phil Hellmuth" new book., JunglingS, 19. May 2003 07:11 | ||
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| Raising with middle pairs is to isolate this against whomever might be on the come. If you can pretty well tell that this is the effect this is going to have, I say more power to you -- Play it hard!! There are many times, however, that you're up against a player that will, for instance, only bet a pat hand, a set, top pair, or two pair on the flop (btw, I consider this a bit weak, but then again my style of play does lend itself to some big swings at times) and he bets in front of you. In this situation, when there is something like a J or Q on the flop discard your 88 unless you're reasonably sure he can be scared because of the other cards. This may be rather frequent against this type of player, as his dependancy on what he percieves to be almost nut hands puts him at a major disadvantage when a potential straight or flush hits the board (which is what you're looking for on this flop to isolate a player). In this type of situation (where the turn or river sets up three to a straight or flush on the board), bet hard when it happens and try to scare him. If this kind of player calls or raises, he might have the made hand that you are representing, and it's probabally a good time to cut bait. | ||
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| Re: Phil Hellmuth JR's new book., flintsword, 18. May 2003 14:43 | ||
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| There is also the "outside possibility" his recommendations are meant to misinform his rivals. Big fan of pairs, granted, but there is a grain of truth there which anyone can experience with AQ suited facing 99 ... &l learn the hard way (the 99 is a favourite to win). When I spectated at the WSOP last week, Hellmuth was pretty sedate. Classy. He just won his 9th bracelet and $410,860 in the No Limit Holdem tournament so we can add "happy camper" to the description ... :) flintsword | ||
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| Re: Phil Hellmuth JR's new book., NiceFella, 18. May 2003 21:51 | ||
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| I read Phil's book, and became frightened because I knew it was going to ruin my game for a few days. Yes, I gave Phil's play recommendations a whirl for a day. It was a lot of fun and a little scary. Phil's strategy seems to sum up as a raise-or-fold game played like this: 1. Wait for premium hands, then raise and/or reraise before the flop. 2. ALWAYS raise the flop to "see where they're at." Don't fold unless it's truly hopeless. 3. On the turn, fold or raise. This is pretty much the only point in the hand where you will fold. 4. Call any bet on the river for the pot odds. Yes, the pot will be enormous by now. The part about playing only premium hands was nothing new -- I easily fold about 90% of what the dealer gives me. What was unusual for me was the relentless raising. Phil recommends raising where I would often fold. I often had to force myself to raise when I was certain I should muck, only to discover that I'd won the pot as a result. I must admit, it was fun pumping the pot so much. And it was surprisingly effective. My local 4/8 game is overpopulated with calling stations who will call with basically anything. However, even the dullest of them became aware that once I was in a pot, it was going to cost a LOT of bets to see the river, because I was going to raise them mercilessly. I bought a lot of pots this way. Regulars who know my game as extremely tight and methodical didn't quite to know what to make of it all. In the end, the strategy is just too wild for me. My bankroll took huge swings that day and it was hard to stay calm and deliberate. It's true that I won a lot of pots that I would have normally lost, but I also lost more money on the pots I didn't win. I've gone back to playing my normal ABC game, but I think the experiment did teach me some lessons about the value of being truly frighteningly aggressive. It's a trick I can pull out of my bag every now and again. I must admit that the part about raising on the flop to "see where there at" is a very useful tip. It's a lot easier to know what a player has after you've done this. I've incorporated this into my regular game now. I think Phil's hyper-aggressive strategy will be popular with a lot of newcomers because it's easy to learn and really fun to play. You could do worse. The low limit tables are overrun with pathetic check-and-call types who play way too many hands and couldn't raise to save their aces. However, without a solid grounding in ABC play and good knowledge of pot odds (something Phil only briefly touches on), and a strong ability to read opponents, you can get into a lot of trouble playing Phil's way. I guess the best compliment I can give Phil's book is this: I'd hate it if a bunch of newcomers to the game started playing this way. It's so much easier to take money from passive sheep. Your mileage may vary, NiceFella | ||
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| Re: Phil Hellmuth JR's new book., Swagman, 18. May 2003 22:41 | ||
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| Thats very interesting that some one wrote a book about raise-folding, as i believe for the most part that's the way hold'em should be played. Interesting too, if the book is succesful where going to have a new breed of player with very little skill but introducing alot of money to the pot. Sounds like my dream table; me and a bunch of Hellmuth's neophytes. | ||
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| Re: Phil Hellmuth JR's new book., mroban, 22. May 2003 11:45 | ||
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| Hilarious, almost my exact same reaction. Fortunately, I have been playing for a few years (quite successfully) and will pare back his hyper aggressive style a bit. For me preflop in most of the low limit online games, it is better to call 1 or maybe 2 bets preflop with a pair less than 9-9. But Phil's system is interesting when you consider who the "elephants, mice and jackals" are. I have done very well reraising the Jackal types (as Phil calls them) and have won some monster pots. When you hit your set, the Jackals don't fold and never see it coming. Anyway, I agree that the "bet to gain information on the flop" is the best aspect of his book and really has been effective for me as well. I am still not calling 2 raises with 7-7 against decent players preflop much less re-raising. But it is a good way to vary play every now and then especially against the "jackals" (and there are many out there in cyberpoker land). | ||
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