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Server Time: 11/20/2009 5:49:38 PM PACIFIC |
 Dirty Poker?, MozMan, 16. May 2003 15:13 | ||
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| I'd like to preface my comment/question by letting you know that I am generally a nice guy, and I hold a lot of respect for people, particularly those older than me. I had a situation arise the other night at the casino that I wasn't sure how to handle. I was playing at a table where there were several old-timers (our casino attracts a lot of retired folk). I was in the #9 seat, right of the dealer, and there was an older lady in the #1 seat, other side of the dealer and an older gentleman on her left. They seemed nice enough, were friendly and chatty, and they seemed to know the game fairly well... like most there, they were pretty straight players, and largely passive. This one hand, the lady had the button, so I was second to last for action. After the flop, I had a nut-flush draw. The pot was multi-way, with 7 of us limping in before the flop. Everyone checked the flop to me, and I was happy to accept the free card with my flush-draw, so I checked too; but the lady on the button laid a bet. Most in front of me called her bet, with 1 folding, so I check-raised, hoping for the free card in case I missed the turn. Immediately, there were grumbles from that end of the table, and I could hear "check-raise" being uttered with sheer disgust from the older couple. From the corner of my eye, I could see some really dirty looks coming my way too. I didn't make the flush on the turn, but the play worked just like I wanted it to and the table checked it around; I got to see the river for free... and that's where I caught my flush. The show-down ended up heads-up between me and the lady, my flush beating her two-pair (I'm still not sure why she called my bet on the river). After that, there was a lot of tension at the table for the rest of the time I played there. I got a table-change after my next button. Is a check-raise really that much of a big-nasty thing to do? I honestly think it's a valid part of the game, and a valuable tool that's just as available to thsoe who choose not to use it. What are your thoughts? Was I playing dirty poker? Or were they overreacting? | ||
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| Re: Dirty Poker?, Huck, 16. May 2003 15:46 | ||
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| They were definitely over-reacting, because all real poker players know that check-raising is an integral part of the game. I'm guessing that you were playing at a fairly low-limit table, that the players at the table knew each other fairly well, and that they play for fun more than for the money. So your evil check-raising upset their typical passive, friendly game of poker. That's pure speculation, of course, but that's what it sounds like. | ||
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| Re: Dirty Poker? You should respect traditions, Easy E, 16. May 2003 17:57 | ||
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| No point in angering the customers, especially if they are weak. Cut down or eliminate the check-raising, bet for value or induce bluffs more (depending on the play) | ||
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| Re: Dirty Poker? You should respect traditions, Swagman, 16. May 2003 18:07 | ||
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| I'd agree. Your check-raise won the pot, but you probably put all those old folk on a better game. Maybe should have smiled said your were sorry cuz you didn't know this was a friendly game, talk about the weather and bingo, and take all of them for thier money the friendly old fasion way. | ||
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| Re: Dirty Poker? You should respect traditions, Mojo702, 17. May 2003 16:48 | ||
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| Screw them...you're not there for them. You're there to make YOURSELF money. I'm a blackjack dealer and I love when people get pissed at person1 because person1 did something to make THEMSELVES money and "messed up the table/cards." IT'S NOT A TEAM SPORT/GAME.! Do what YOU need to do. They don't like it, they can find another game. I hate when people think you need to conform to what THEY want. Makes me go out of my way just to piss them off. Don't go off your game to please them. Play YOUR best game. They don't like it? TOUGH! | ||
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| Re: Dirty Poker? You should respect traditions, Swagman, 17. May 2003 17:02 | ||
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| Whoa... thats certainly true enuff. But making a check raise in that table will only induce a better game from a weak table. It the long run it would hurt you at that table. because now they got all headlights on you. | ||
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| Re: Dirty Poker? You should respect traditions, MozMan, 17. May 2003 17:24 | ||
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| Hey Mojo- If you're gonna respond to my posts, please tell me what you really think; don't ride the fence like that... I can handle hearing an opinion! :) just kidding. I tend to agree (though I may not express it as strongly)... I do also understand the views of Easy and Swag... bottom line is, I want to take as many of their chips as I can, and if I can accomplish that by making them feel warm and fuzzy by playing with me, then I will do it. If, conversely, I think I can put them on a tilt by doing what pisses them off, maybe I will do that instead. I'm glad to hear that everyone seems to agree that a check-raise is a valid play, and not a dirty move. I respect the opinions here more than most of those I might hear in the casino... so I will continue to check-raise when it seems a good play, and if I come accross people like this again, I will play it by ear and see if I can read them enough to determine if it's better to make nice of piss them off more. | ||
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| Re: Dirty Poker? You should respect traditions, Big_Slick, 17. May 2003 17:42 | ||
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| So many of the "old timers" think that the check-rasie is dirty, a lot of the b&m card room display that specific rule on their walls. Sad, huh? | ||
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| Re: Dirty Poker? You should respect traditions, MozMan, 17. May 2003 17:48 | ||
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| Yeah, it is sad, because I think that takes a very important tool away from us. If a particular card room has a rule against the check-raise, then I have the choice not to play there. If I choose to play there, then I have a responsibility to play by their rules, whether I like it or not. | ||
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| Re: Dirty Poker? You should respect traditions, ice, 18. May 2003 20:51 | ||
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| i think thats rediculous... check-raising is part of the game... poker is not a game of chance, and i think even if you are playing with a bunch of grumbling old timers, you should still show them that if you check, it doesn't mean you don't have a hand. this is poker, its not like you reached over and stole a stack of her chips.... play your game. *********** ¡¢£ßøx | ||
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| Re: Dirty Poker?, Big_Slick, 16. May 2003 19:02 | ||
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| I remember check-raising with pocket aces once. A woman at the tabled gasped and said that I trying to "trick" her. I looked at her and politely said, "Ma'am, that's what poker is all about. This isn't go-fish." She shut up after that. I can understand the view that you don't want to "disturb" the regulars but I find it ridiculous. I suppose they groaned over regular raises too. | ||
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| Re: Dirty Poker?, john ray, 16. May 2003 21:14 | ||
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| I hate to be ck-raised for the simple reason that (I MADE THE MISTAKE) of not seeing it coming. I expect my opponents to do it to me and they should expect the same . When I was younger I never went to a fight without thinking the guy would hit me with everything he had. John | ||
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| Re: Dirty Poker?, TIM LUDDEN, 18. May 2003 19:23 | ||
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| we just had this discussion on our local game friday, we have two new comers that when were explained da rules (*raise limits, etc), I mentioned that check/raise was allowed. they Both major balked and we ended up with a 10 minute discussion on the matter, (*the bottom line was that the 5 cores overruled the two news), but in all seriousness my personal argument was that I think that disallowing a check/raise in a game does more harm than good, a good check/raise ever so often keeps the junk betters (guys trying to buy the pot) at bay, and generally a check is more likely go go around due to "suspicion of sneaky check/raise comin", than it is when you're forced to open. I took a large pot from one of the newcomers when on the river, I saw my card, feigned dissapointment, and checked in disgust, the only other player in the pot, smiled and bet 3, ready to rake, I didn't hesitate, and chipped him 3+6, and won the pot since I DID hit my straight. He definately grumbled, but after I reminded him that he also coulda checked his high pair like I checked my straight, but he CHOSE to take advantage of my apparant weakness, and subsequently lost, thankfully he was over it quickly, (and tried it himself a couple times, with checks all around, (free cards!!!). Bottom line is that check/raise keeps garbage pickers at bay forcing them to bet their cards more carefully, it really just goes back to the old friendly "family" poker games, where it was for fun, not money, most poker games are for money, not fun. | ||
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| Re: Dirty Poker?, shorn, 19. May 2003 05:38 | ||
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| I agree with Lee Jones's assessment that Hold 'Em without the checkraise is a crippled game. This is one of the only waeapons you have available to you in early position and changes the game dramatically if it was not allowed. Now, I agree that if you are going to really piss off all of the fish by doing it, then it might be a more +EV play to forsake it. But I for one will not play in a card room that doesn't allow it. | ||
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| Re: Dirty Poker?, Risky Business, 19. May 2003 08:37 | ||
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| I'm glad I wasn't first to respond. Good job MoJo. You could have used my specialty....."I'm not here to play cards, I'm here to win money." Throw in a "preferably yours" or an "old bag" or "blue hair" if you feel inclined. on 19. May 2003 05:38 shorn wrote: > I agree with Lee Jones's assessment that Hold 'Em without the checkraise is a crippled game. > This is one of the only waeapons you have available to you in early position and changes the > game dramatically if it was not allowed. > > Now, I agree that if you are going to really piss off all of the fish by doing it, then it > might be a more +EV play to forsake it. But I for one will not play in a card room that > doesn't allow it. | ||
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| Re: Dirty Poker?, stdioh, 20. May 2003 10:28 | ||
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| You are there to seperate them from their money and you made a legal and legitimate play. If they don't like it tough. You were being courteous and that is the most that anybody can ask for. If they think that it is bad manners to play your best, that is their problem, not yours. If you take the checkraise from my repertoir, I'm going to have trouble beating a game...throw in a bunch of people who never checkraise and I'm happy to play them, but only when I play my best. If they want a table change, fine. Somebody else will sit down and play you and if you want you can always follow them to the new table. | ||
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| Re: Dirty Poker?, Snorbolus, 20. May 2003 10:54 | ||
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| If I was at a table where everybody was strongly opposed to check-raising I think that I would do as you did. Apologize, then change tables at the first opportunity. When I play poker I am there to play cards, not just to make money. It affects my enjoyment when others try to make me feel bad for making what I consider to be the best decisions. I would rather not play with those people. Fortunately, thus far I have only met one player who objected to check-raises. That was at a friendly table. Everybody else who spoke up was in favor of check-raising and, after grumbling for a while, he didn't seem to take it to heart. Snorbolus | ||
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