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Server Time: 3/17/2010 1:21:09 PM PACIFIC |
 Need help with poker concept., Cpt Kernow, 15. May 2003 02:56 | ||
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| One thing I here/read about players playing against someone on a draw, is that they say "I decided to make him/her pay for their draw" However when thinking about this it doesn't seem to make sense in relation to the concept of POT odds. E.g. By betting one increase the pot and might give the opponent pot odds to attempt their draw. Yet I understand how one disnt want to give them free cards to atempt to fill up on. I am thinking at the moment that is allways best to bet into a draw say a flush coz this means for every 1 time they do hit I am maximising my returns on 3 times they dont. However I am in no way clear about how to approach this conceptualy and what conceptual tools I should be applying to situations where I have to make this decision. Clarification on this whole issue would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance Kernow. | ||
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| Re: Need help with poker concept., Easy E, 15. May 2003 04:19 | ||
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| They get INFINITE ODDS ($0 cost to draw and win pot) when you don't bet. They may be getting the proper odds to draw, if the pot is big enough, but it's much lower than infinity. | ||
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| Re: Need help with poker concept., shorn, 15. May 2003 04:56 | ||
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| One other thing that you can do (but it is dangerous). If you are first to act and the previous action leads you to believe that the player to your immediate right will bet if it is checked around, then you can checkraise and hopefully make everyone in-between pay two bets to draw. This is dangerous because if no one bets then you have given that free card, so you MUST be sure that someone will bet and you will be able to raise to limit the field (or make others make a mistake in calling relative to pot odds). If you aren't sure, then by all means bet. As EasyE points out, a mathematical catastrophe (in limit poker at least) occurs if you let someone draw for free and they hit, especially when they might not have called your bet in the first place. Think of it in these terms: when in doubt bet so that a player who would not call 1 bet doesn't get a free chance to win the whole pot. | ||
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| Re: Need help with poker concept., Easy E, 15. May 2003 08:52 | ||
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| Two points for you, shorn! I was going to mention check-raising, then got lazy. | ||
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| Re: Need help with poker concept., Mark, 15. May 2003 09:06 | ||
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| The thought process behind making someone pay for their draws has two components (i'm aware of) and we are assuming the player is going to see the next card no matter what. First, in poker, its very important to always be making correct decisions (obviously). But you make even more money when your opponents make poor decisions. So, if your opponents will draw against you with out pot odds, they are making very poor decisions. This gives you much more + EV situations, meaning more money in your pocket at the end of the night. Now, as stated in an above post, if you don't bet your opponents get infinite pot odds. They are not making a mistake to draw because its free. Now they are making the correct play, and your EV goes down. It is still positive, but less than before. Basically the theory revolves around the thought that when your opponents make mistakes, you become a favorite to win. P.S. Just in case you don't know what EV is, it stands for Expected Value of a hand/situation. for example, drawing with pot odds is a +EV because in the long run you will win more than you lose, however, drawing with out pot odds is a -EV. mark | ||
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| Re: Need help with poker concept., Short Stackd, 15. May 2003 11:28 | ||
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| You've asked a question where the two players are making the right decisions. Here's why it's correct to bet. If he's getting correct pot odds someone else is in the pot not getting correct pot odds or drawing dead. You may be building a pot for someone else if it hits, and his call is correct. But the other 3 times he misses that pot you built is yours. | ||
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| Re: Need help with poker concept., Wren, 15. May 2003 10:07 | ||
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| As a general rule, when you are the favourite to win a hand, you want to put money into the pot. When you are NOT a favourite to win a hand, you don't want to put money in the pot. Often, your opponent will have pot odds to call your bet, so he calls, but you are still putting money in with the best of it. Where you REALLY profit is when you induce an opponent to make a mistake by calling. For example, say you raise preflop with KK and get two callers. The flop comes 3 9J rainbow. Your opponent holds KT. He is a very loose/passive player who will call with any sort of straight or flush draw, and sometimes with backdoor draws on the flop. If you bet the flop, he will call you with his straight draw, but he is making a mistake to do so because he has 4 outs, and the pot is not laying him the correct odds to call. He will likely call the turn as well, again without correct odds to call. This is how a great deal of money is won (at least in the lower limits) in poker - by making bad players make bad mistakes. However, assume you bet the flop but then check the turn when another scary J falls. Now, your opponent has infinite odds to draw for one of his Q outs. It is obviously not a mistake for him to take a free card! You want to be constantly putting heat on players who will draw without pot odds. There are some situations in which you might actually raise when you aren't currently the favourite to win a pot, for two reasons: (1) It might allow you to take a free card (2) It increases your implied odds (ie helps create a monster pot in the event that you DO hit) There are also times when the current best hand is actually a dog to win the pot. For example, black AA on a board of 9T3 2 hearts, with opponents holding JQ, 8Q, 34 and A5h. It is still correct to bet in this situation to attempt to knock out hands like the 34 and 8Q (which are less promising), thus giving yourself more safe cards. Heh...I got rambling here about pot odds & such and now I don't exactly remember what the original question was :O) Hopefully I kinda-sorta helped, anyhoo :O) | ||
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| Re: Need help with poker concept., stdioh, 15. May 2003 10:35 | ||
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| You make somebody pay for their draw when they are not a favourite compared to the number of players coming in. For instance, if I am drawing to the nut flush and there are 10 bets in the pot on the turn, I will always call one bet. Nonetheless, I have less than a 50% chance of winning that bet - I have pot odds to call because I can't afford to lose my shot at the 10 bets in the pot. Now when there are 7 people in a hand and I am drawing to the nut flush, I want more money in there building me a pot because I have a better than 1/7 chance of getting there. For every 1 bet I put in, 6 other players put in a bet, so it is +EV for me to put money in. Calling a bet because you have pot odds is -EV ... it is just less bad than folding to such a bet which is very -EV. | ||
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| Re: Need help with poker concept., noiseboy, 15. May 2003 12:26 | ||
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| Usually, you want to raise when you have a pair vs. a drawing hand because it reduces their pot odds. If someone has to call $10 to stay in a pot of $50, they are getting 5 to 1 from the pot. If they have a flush draw which they will make more than 1 in five times, then they have an easy call. If a person before them raises with there pair, then they have to put up $20 to win $60 which has reduced the pot odds to 3 to 1, and whether they call would depend on how many callers they expect behind them. Also, they have to fear getting trapped if someone can reraise behind them, which would completely destroy their odds. However, lets say there are eight players in the pot and you have an overpair with straights and flushes possible on the board, and that your pair is very unlikely to improve because you didn't catch any of the flop, in this case you may not want to raise. A lot of opponents have collectively enough outs that you are likely not the money favorite. The money favorite when there are a lot of players is the person with the best draw, and all the bets and raises benefit the best draw and not necessarily the best hand at the moment. If in this case you had the best draw, you would bet and raise, and do whatever you could to maximize the pot, because you will win more than your fair share of any money put in. Hope this all makes sense. If you want more info on odds, I suggest Gary Carson's book. | ||
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