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Server Time: 10/6/2008 5:07:23 PM PACIFIC |
 Need some encouragement, SoCalPat, 13. May 2003 18:56 | ||
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| This is not a frustrated-from-taking-so-many-bad-beats post. Nor is it one questioning the legitimacy of online poker. But I'm in a situation I've never been in, and I think it speaks to my improvement as a player. Often, I would buy in, win immediately (often doubling or tripling my small buy-in, usually $50) and then lose it back. The end was often horrific, with me tilting and limping with "quality" trash (Qx suited in early position, for example. I say "quality" because it's several steps above, say, 94 suited, but trash because it's ... well, trash. Of course, we all know oxymorons don't work in poker). This time, it's different. I bought in for $50, got it up to $180, dropped back to $40, bought in for another $50, dropped all the way to $2.50 (yes, you read that right) before getting back up to $160. FWIW, I play both micro limits and tournaments. I turned $2.50 into $160. Do you know how wonderful it is to say that? In the past, dropping to such a low level would have dropped me to the depths of depression (OK, a bit of a stretch :-) ) and I would have literally given that $2.50 away and bought in a week or two later when I regained my senses. I really feel if I can double-up my bankroll, I can make poker a profitable venture, as well as moving up and playing 1/2 and 2/4. I know I can beat those games, but my bankroll isn't quite ready for it. Yet. In a nutshell, yes, I'm shamelessly seeking props for my recent play, but I'd also like to hear from low/micro limit players who struggled before breaking through. When did the epiphany come? Am I getting close to one of my own? Thanks in advance. | ||
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| It's a start...., Easy E, 13. May 2003 19:52 | ||
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| but I would want to go much more than double on my bankroll, with the variance that you've shown so far. Good that you were able to work your way back up, but did you do it with solid play and hands, or did you take flyers and get lucky? Take the lessons from this experience (and especially the FEELINGS- it SUCKS to play like an idiot and throw it away.... as you've found out) and continue to improve. When you can win more consistantly and, more importantly, avoid the 90-100BB swings in one session that you've been doing, you'll be on your way | ||
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| Re: It's a start...., SoCalPat, 13. May 2003 20:18 | ||
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| My first winning hand was a bit of a flyer. I'm dealt Q4 in the SB and complete. Flop comes AQ3, three limpers. Figuring this might be as good as it gets, I bet and am called all the way around. Turn is a Q, I bet out, all call. River is a blank, I go all-in and win the hand. I make no excuses for being fortunate when I'm that close to the felt. :-) Solid play thereafter, until I get to around $20. I'm dealt K10 off in the BB and call a raiser in MP. Flop comes AQ9, it's checked around to the raiser, who bets. Normally, I'd be out of here, but something screamed at me to call one small bet and see the turn. The turn brings the magical J, and with a two-flush on the board, I bet out. MP raises, SB makes it 3, and of course, I cap. River is a rag, I bet, MP raises, SB calls, I make it 3, MP folds and SB simply calls. He's holding 8-10 and I take it down, essentially doubling up my stack. Obviously, I'm still making a sketchy play here and there. Who doesn't?But I'm getting better pre-flop and folding when the odds simply aren't there (although the above hands might contradict that). I'm losing my hyper-aggressiveness (A10s in MP is NOT a raising hand). I'm also not letting the beats get to me, and I'm taking better notes on the opposition. In tournaments, I've improved my trapping skills and am hammering people on draws or with clearly inferior hands. One example: I'm UTG with AA, 7 players left in a single-table tourney at Paradise. I'm at about 1,800 and near the lead. Blinds at 100-200. I come in for 400, EP+2 raises to 800, MP calls and I go all in. Both call, and the board improves no one. My AA stands up vs. 10-10 and AQs. I've learned it's OK to fold and concede the blinds when heads-up in a tournament. I've become more selective when trying to steal blinds when heads-up. No doubt I'll see another bad run of cards. I believe I'm in better position psychologically to handle it. To me, that's critical. | ||
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| Re: Need some encouragement, Big_Slick, 13. May 2003 21:15 | ||
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| I hate to be the one to rain on your parade, but consider this tough love. I can tell from your post that you are nowhere near ready to <I>make poker a profitable venture</I>. Do I think turning $2.50 into $160 is wonderful? It is more likely lucky and probably the worst thing that could have happened to you. Because you came back like the Phoenix and rose from the ashes, you feel like you are ready to conquer the poker world. However, the only thing different this time from all the other times is that you came out ahead at the end of the day. (And by my calculations, you turned $100 into $160... the original $50 you bought in for plus another $50). Okay, here are my problems... You've stated in your post that you <I>often</I> would play trash, give all your winnings away, etc. If I would have to guess, you probably build up winnings with trash, get lucky, hit a few pots and get up a few dollars. However, everyone knows that trash eventually loses to solid play. Your lucky draws start to run out, but you continue playing. Soon, you are busted or close to it. You dig into your wallet for some more cash hoping that your "luck" will change. You talk about moving up and playing 1/2 games. Do you mean to tell me that you are having $100 swings playing less than 1/2? That is a ton of action which tells me that you must be playing way too many hands. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see discipline, mental toughness, money management or experience. It really scares me that you are so excited about coming back with your $2.50. I think you are a person who likes the game of poker and plays a lot. Sometimes you win but mostly you lose. You might think that you are a winner overall, but you don't keep records. If you did, you would see that in actuality, you lose money at poker. Again, I know I'm being harsh. But I don't want you to make the same mistakes I made years ago. When I was 22, I moved to California and started playing poker. 7-card stud was my game. I thought I was good, I thought I was beating the game. I was only fooling myself. I wasn't anywhere near the player I needed to be to even break even. I had no discipline, no concept of folding a bad hand. I was full throttle all the way to the river. I read some books and thought I knew what I was doing. All I was doing was looking for action. Now for some positive words... I truly believe that most people can learn to be very good poker players. Of course, no one is born a poker player... it takes hard work and a lot of discipline. Always be true to yourself, keep solid records and at the end of the day, be honest about the way you play and what you can do to be better. Maybe I'm way off base with this post but when I read your words, it was like looking into the past. If I've offended you, it was only with the best of intentions. Sincerely. Lee | ||
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| Re: Need some encouragement, SoCalPat, 13. May 2003 21:32 | ||
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| Lee, Thanks for the advice. A couple of things ... First, I only played marginal/trash hands when things were going bad and discipline had taken a back seat. I had built my bankroll by playing right ... almost all of the time. Of course some mistakes are made. But for some reason, sometime after going up, I adopted a form of poker arrogance similar to what you mentioned (I've read books, I'm smarter than the rest of the table, I'm invincible, etc.). Obviously, I have to play each hand like I just bought in, past successes be damned. The swings sound wild, but would cover a period of weeks, not hours or days. There's no doubt I've lost money in poker overall. And I do need to keep better records -- it's part of my evolution as a player. Thanks for your advice. I really appreciate it, and will remember it as part of my education as a poker player. | ||
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| Re: Need some encouragement, Big_Slick, 13. May 2003 21:44 | ||
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| I know I sounded harsh. I'm not sure if you frequent the forum or not, but it's like a family here. There are some absolutely terrific people that contribute extraordinary experience, insight and knowledge. When we get on our soap box, it's only because we care. I'm glad you're not angry with me. The post you left tells me that are mature and on your way to becoming a better player. | ||
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| Re: Need some encouragement, stdioh, 14. May 2003 07:21 | ||
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| It sounds like you have a problem that most newish poker players have and that I had at one point...short term results are affecting how you feel about your game. You say, "I just won all this money. I'm awesome. I can win with any cards because I am so much better." Then you play badly and lose. Then you think, "I suck. Why was I playing like that? I can do better." Then you start playing good cards again and win. You *must* be able to stop playing when you see yourself starting to play "quality trash" because if you just let yourself sit there and play it you will be bled dry. My tilt indicator is QT. I play this hand way too much as it is, because it is just such a piece of cheese. If I find myself limping with QTo in middle position and I don't have a *very* good reason to do so, then I tell myself, "Whoa Duke. Time to go for a walk and if you can't clean up your act then it is time to go home." | ||
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| Re: Need some encouragement, shorn, 14. May 2003 07:24 | ||
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| I like the QT litmus test stdioh. Just because Varkonyi can win the WSOP Big One with it doesn't mean it isn't a total piece of cheese. | ||
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| Re: Need some encouragement, noiseboy, 14. May 2003 09:27 | ||
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| It's a piece of cheese, but when he played it aggressively at the end, he was heads up, so it wasn't such a bad play. Plus he knocked out Phil Hellmuth with that hand, so he probably had a bit of superstition in his decision to play it. Usually a bad thing, but in this case, I think the poker gods wanted Phil to be humiliated as much as possible. :) | ||
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| Re: Need some encouragement, shorn, 14. May 2003 09:40 | ||
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| Don't get me wrong...I love to see it when PM gets knocked around like that...can't stand him. And you are right that Varkonyi was probably superstitious at that point (the deck clobbered him all day). But, it is still a cheese hand that should be tossed under all but the best of circumstances. Basically, he was taking the worst of it whenever he played it and got really lucky. | ||
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| Re: Need some encouragement, Brent, 14. May 2003 08:19 | ||
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| One point that I have not seen anyone else address. You stated that you know that you start off doubling your money but then end up losing it back. I would suggest trying a couple sessions of quiting. As soon as you make some money walk away for the evening. Doing so will help build some online bankroll and give you the confidence to walk away whenever you chose. The first time I played with real money online I got up close to $500 from a $100 investment in one night then lost half of it back that same night. The rest was gone the next night. Since then I have learned to recognize when my play has taken a turn for the worse. I truely believe that my ability to walk away has been the best thing I have learned. | ||
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| Re: Need some encouragement, Wren, 14. May 2003 12:37 | ||
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| I played a crapload of online lowlimit poker last year (somewhere betwen 600 and 1000 hours - I didn't keep track back then). I started off with $10 that I won in a freeroll tournament, and built that up to over 5K without buying in again. I'd keep at least $500 in my account at all times to cover the limits that I regularly played ($.5-1, $1-2 and, less frequently, $2-4 limit HE, some microlimit NLH and microlimit PLO8) and I didn't bust for a full year. I "discovered" online poker at a very fortunate time - I was broke and in debt, and I had a fairly light set of courses for my last couple terms at University. So, I played A LOT. But it wasn't always a walk in the park. There were times when I thought I was completely indestructable - I'd be playing very well, have great reads on the table and be getting good cards to boot. This would continue for several sessions, and I'd be on an incredible high. Then, I'd hit the wall and play 30 or 40 hours in which I'd break even, or even lose some money. Periods like this were very frustrating. I often experienced what stdio mentioned in his response to this - when I was winning, I felt like a GREAT poker player, and when I was losing, I wasn't even sure I could beat the game. At times like this, I'd look at my bottom line and know that, indeed, I was beating the game, and I'd mentally go through all the factors that pointed to me being a winning player. And eventually I'd break out of the funk yet again. Back in January, I finally busted my online roll. I had $400 in there, and proceeded to have a completely abomidable session in which I lost $350 of it at $1-2, $2-4 and $3-6. I withdrew the last $50 in disgust and decided to restrict my play to B&M casinos for awhile. I haven't played for real money online since, but I kind of miss it; it is a fun (and profitable) past time, as long as one can manage to wrench oneself away from the computer and enjoy other things in life every once in awhile :O) So there's my story. I guess my main point here is that one can get lucky and build a small initial investment up to a decent sum of money, but it takes a lot of hours, discipline, experience, and skill to continuously beat the game. Don't let short term results, or emotions, make you jump to conclusions. Play solid poker, put in your hours and track your results. The more you play, the clearer a picture you will have on your overall abilities and potential at the game. | ||
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