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Server Time: 11/21/2008 4:24:43 PM PACIFIC |
 Making value bets, Huck, 12. May 2003 13:54 | ||
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| I'm an amateur player who plays at-home games almost exclusively, and I rarely venture out to play in the casinos. I want to become a better player before I lose my money to strangers. ;) I've noticed that, on the whole, I tend to bet the value of my hand. I think this is somewhat normal, but I think it's got to be a tell for those observant enough to pick it up. For example, let's say I'm playing No-limit Hold Em and I have $1000 in front of me. If I'm dealt AA, I might bet anywhere from $200 to All-in, depending on the situation. If I have AQs, I might bet $200-$400. If I have QQ, I might bet $200-300, or possibly go All-in. If I have 77, I might bet $50-$150 or just call. If I have JTs, I might make a minimal bet, but I'll more likely just call. In other words, I know the relative power ranking of hole cards, and I tend to bet them accordingly. I also take position, opponents, number of opponents, number of raises, etc, into consideration, of course. But am I giving away too much by betting my hands for value like this? For instance, should I sometimes bet low suited connectors, like 87s, as if I held a pair of Queens, just to keep everyone off balance? I find it very hard to gamble like this, because the expectation that the gamble will pay off is very slim. And I can't guarantee that I'll be able to show the cards down, either, so the main reason for playing them (ie, to change my table image) may be lost. After the flop, I vary my bets more greatly and depend more on my opponents, position, etc, than on the cards I hold. So I'm mainly talking about initial bets, like pre-flop bets, here. | ||
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| Re: Making value bets, MozMan, 12. May 2003 14:21 | ||
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| You know, it's really a judgement call and depends a lot on the situation, the players at the table, and how they perceive you. If you are playing with the same bunch of guys all the time, and you get to the point where every time you put chips in the pot everybody folds because they all know from experience that they can never beat you, then you might want to try a pure bluff on them. Lay a bet on 72o and see if you can steal the blinds. If everyone folds, show them the 72o... that will really throw them for a loop and get them thinking that they didn't know you as well as they thought. Keeps them thinking about something other than strategy, and gives you an advantage in later hands... Keep in mind, though, that you only want to play that kind of garbage as a kind of "Last Resort" because you can't get them to play with you any more... obviously, you don't want to make a habit of playing cards like that. | ||
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| Re: Making value bets, SendMoney, 12. May 2003 23:17 | ||
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| There are some things you can do to vary your bets quite a bit and add some deception to your game. You don't have to raise AA big ALL the time pre-flop, at least not initially. Maybe you could say I'm going to raise AA big 75% of the time, but I'm going to only limp with the Red Aces. Likewise you could say, if I get 10J of hearts and nobody raises ahead of me I'm going All-In pre-flop. The idea of limping with AA, especially from early position is to wait for a late position raise (preferably a big one) and then jump over the top All-In. There is a good chance no one besides you and the raiser will get involved in this flop, and if you're heads up AA has about a 77-90% advantage over any other starting hand pre-flop. I'm sure you know this but towards the end of a tournament either 3 handed or heads up, any pocket pair and any Ax hand is suddenly a power hand. | ||
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| Re: Making value bets, Big_Slick, 13. May 2003 08:46 | ||
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| Don't be so concerned about going all in before the flop... it's a great way to go broke and get knocked out of a tournament. I think that going all in (pre-flop) is one of more pronounced mistakes that beginners make in NLHE. That said, there is a time and a place for an all-in move. But I always shake my head in amazement when I see people going all-in with any pair, even K-Q or A-x from under the gun. Good players know that poker is all about choosing your battles. I don't like to go into battle without at least getting a feel or a read on my opponents. Seeing 3 more cards is usually a good idea too. | ||
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| Re: Making value bets, Mark, 13. May 2003 09:01 | ||
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| Hi Huck First of all, you ideally want to be making bets in proportion to the value of your hand. Obviously, you want to wager more with AA that J10. The reason people say to vary your bets is so that your opponents won't pick up on it. But if your opponents haven't yet picked up on it, you may not need to change much. By limping with AA or raising with a marginal hand (once in a while), you will add a little deception to your game ONLY if your opponents are aware enough to pick up on it. If you do something strange and no one seems to notice, it may be a waste of time. Also, you only need to make a strange play once or twice a session. That is usually enough for aware opponents to remember that you don't always play ABC. mark | ||
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| Re: Making value bets, shorn, 13. May 2003 09:18 | ||
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| As others have said, the key is your opponents. Don't make the play just because you think that you need too...if they aren't catching on to how you play, then making a marginal move will only cost you money. I agree with (tournament winner!) Big_Slick about going all in...I don't like that play especially early or middle in a tourny. Once you are all-in and called it is a crapshoot. So, I would vary your raises according to strength and then every once in while throw in a 3 times BB raise with something like T9s from late position. BUT, be sure that you never raise too much and get pot committed...you want to be able to get away from it if someone comes back over the top. Good luck. Steve | ||
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| Re: Making value bets, Player X, 13. May 2003 12:07 | ||
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| Since you're not talking about tournament play here, it is generallybetter to only have one or maybe two standard raise sizes before the flop (which are in themselves adjusted depending on how many limpers you have in front of you). So you would be raising the same amount with AJ suited as you would AA. (this is if you decide to raise with AJ suited) (Note that I'm only talking about raising and not reraising) This way your opponents won't be able to put you on a hand. Now like many of the other posters mentioned... If you're opponents are calling your AA allin raises with everything under the sun, there is no real need for you to change your style against these opponents. -X Writer www.pokerev.com | ||
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| Re: Making value bets, stdioh, 13. May 2003 13:08 | ||
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| Generally speaking, when you are playing no-limit, you want to make a raise that is standardized - that is you want to raise by the same amount every time so that your opponents don't know what you hold. Now it is ok to vary your bets, but don't simply vary them according to their value or people will be able to catch on quickly. That said, you'll never be playing no-limit in a casino cheaply...if you want to slowly learn playing in a casino it'll have to be at the limit games - at least in North America. I would imagine Europe would have cheaper nolimit games available. As for why you wouldn't want to bet a lot with AA preflop, stealing the blinds with you AA is a travesty. If you're playing with a bunch of total rank beginners, then you might just get somebody calling your all-in, but in general people will all fold out and you'll get only the blinds. Now this would be ok with a less premium hand, but if you're playing some crap all-in and get called you're toast. Generally, in no limit, there is almost never a reason to make a bet bigger than the size of the pot (that changes in tournament play, but lets leave that aside). | ||
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| Re: Making value bets, Huck, 14. May 2003 08:46 | ||
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| Thanks for all the great replies. On the whole, it sounds like I'm playing my hands correctly. I think I was starting to out-think myself, but it's good to hear that, until position or knowledge of opponents dictates otherwise, you generally do want to be the value of your hand. And mixing it up once in awhile by strong-betting a weak drawing hand or small pair is a great idea. I appreciate everyone's input! | ||
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