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Server Time: 11/21/2008 9:32:51 AM PACIFIC |
 Article on random number generation, Big_Slick, 9. May 2003 19:29 | ||
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| Thought you might enjoy this. It's a few years old so I don't know if the technology has changed. But I found it intersting anyways. http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/security/library/s-playing/?dwzone=security | ||
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| Random number Maths poeple, chasepoker, 9. May 2003 20:36 | ||
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| Second word, first paragraph: thats where i stopped understanding. Can someone who is good at explaining stuff ( maybe a math geek ? ) expalin this in English to someone not so technicaly minded like me. Boy am i beginging to get a complex, first its goats and now " random-number generation algorithms, including linear-congruent generators " am i thick or what ( dont answer ) But on a more serious note should i be concerned with the paragraph "How to cheat in online gambling " ? As i said i am not very technicaly minded and get lost in jargon, i promise to explain something someday i promise, i just get a kick out asking questions. 7 High's Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: Random number Maths poeple, Big_Slick, 9. May 2003 21:51 | ||
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| Don't worry... I didn't understand all of it either. I still found it interesting though. | ||
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| Re: Random number Maths poeple, NiceFella, 13. May 2003 13:44 | ||
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| Here's my attempt to translate this interesting article into layman's terms. Computers are a very predictable clockwork device. If they weren't predicatable, we couldn't rely on them. They give the same result every time. This makes it difficult to get a random number out of a computer. By definition, a random number is unpredictable. How can we make a computer unpredictable? The programmers at ASF decided to use this naive trick: Let's take the current time of day, then do some complicated math on it (like multiplying it by some big number, then adding some other big number, etc.) and this number should be unpredictable, right? Well, not really. The meat of the "crack" is the fact that there's only so many seconds in a day. If you know what time it is, and what cards resulted, then you can deduce the complicated math that was used to convert the time of day into a shuffled deck of cards. 4POKER, the reason that the "hackers" revealed their crack is because they are a corporation offering software security services. Revealing such a serious flaw in a piece of software is great advertising for their bug-detection services. My favorite random number site on the web is http://www.fourmilab.ch/hotbits/ They generate their numbers the only truly random way: with quantum mechanics. Awesome! NiceFella | ||
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| Re: Random number Maths poeple, 4 POKER, 13. May 2003 13:49 | ||
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| Ahh, Ok, thank you. Got it! | ||
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| Re: Article on random number generation, Swagman, 10. May 2003 03:28 | ||
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| I had heard rumors of this cheat soft being used by some players. This was sometime ago so I cannot recall the exact site. I now believe what they told me to be the truth after reading this article becuase this is exactly how I was told the players had been using software too cheat. Very interesting. Seems online poker is a risking venture. To many ways of cheating. Simple one would just get a friend and using MSN messenger to convey each others hands, and trap and raise the other players out of existence. | ||
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| Re: Article on random number generation, 4 POKER, 10. May 2003 18:55 | ||
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| Hmmm, I wonder who told you about these rumors and I wonder where they got their information from. It just baffles me that if there were people out there who were actually able to cheat by using a software program than why on earth would they tell anybody about it??? If you really believe that those rumors are true, than why would you let yourself be subjected to that?...Oh well, I guess you don't play on-line poker. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Article on random number generation, Swagman, 10. May 2003 19:41 | ||
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| I only play on-line for play money. Lately mostly at Pokerstars.com. However, the rumor was spreading awhile ago at Pokerroom.com I believe. Do not take me at gospel. But some on the big players were talking about how some of the others made some much money in such a small period of time. And one of the players discribed that cheater soft to a tee. I mean really exactly as that article discribed its mechanics. So I would assume this person was truthful. I wouldnt trust software whether or not it could be minupulated by other cheat software anyways. Several other rumors went rampent when I was playing online, like Paradise Poker giving players Healthier cards then would be normal in a 52 card randomized deck. I went there and it did seem that i was getting high faces and PP more then I should have, but I could not prove this. My opinion has never changed. Stay way from online gambling!! I would however like input from other players about any poker sites that they have had good experiences with. | ||
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| Re: Article on random number generation, 4 POKER, 10. May 2003 19:57 | ||
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| Swagman, If your opinion is to "Stay away from on-line Gambling"...(too much cheating), Than why would you even want to know what sites we were playing at? If your opinions are as such(and they are), than those are your feelings. But please don't insult my intelligence by asking me what sites I like to play at because I'd only be wasting my time...Thank you. (first you made comments about how poker is just luck and now you're trashing on-line poker as well)?..... Do you even play poker, at all...or do you just like putting it down? 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Article on random number generation, Swagman, 10. May 2003 21:13 | ||
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| Hmm..... Didnt say poker was just about luck. If that is the message that I conveyed then I am sorry. I was trying to say that there is a larger amount of luck in the game then some players want to admit to, except for those that have 'psi' talents and can force the outcome of any given cards to flop, and those that can read the minds of other people at the table. For them, of course, it would be a game of complete skill. And as for why I wanted to know if people had any good experiences with on-line poker. This was from mere couriosity, because all of my experience (which is limited too playing real money on-line) has been negative. I notice that there are advertisements on this site. If talking negatively about on-line gambling is taboo then I will stop. I didn't feel as if I was attacking you 4 poker. If anything from the messege you sent I get a since that your knowledgeable and I take what you say as good advice. Really, if Im offending anyone here tell me and I'll stop senting messages at all, as I'm only doing it becuase I like poker and my boredom from being in my office at work. | ||
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| Re: Article on random number generation, Big_Slick, 10. May 2003 22:09 | ||
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| I don't see anything inappropriate with your messages, Swagman. If anyone owes an apology, I think it's 4 Poker. | ||
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| Re: Article on random number generation, 4 POKER, 10. May 2003 22:52 | ||
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| on 10. May 2003 22:09 Big_Slick wrote: > I don't see anything inappropriate with your messages, Swagman. If anyone owes an apology, I think it's 4 > Poker. > You want an apology? Okay... I'm sorry you feel this way. (I just hope that you, too will not have such negative thoughts with on-line poker, there really can be a lot of money to be made from it... The honest way). 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Article on random number generation, Big_Slick, 11. May 2003 06:50 | ||
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| 4 Poker, I don't have any negative thoughts about anything... I try to be a very positive person. I just thought that you over reacted a bit to Swagman's posts. If Swagman was one of these idiots toting in capital letters that "ONLINE POKER IS FIXED, THEY'LL TAKE ALL YOUR $$$" then I could understand the tone of your post. However, it's obvious that Swagman is not one of these Looney's. He took the time to write an honest perspective. That is after all, what this forum is all about, right? You are getting mad because he does not agree with you -- I find that a bit petty. Now I've realized over the last few months that are obviously one hell of a poker player. I know that you make a good wage playing on-line poker and I think that is great. But everyone (except for the one-line "don't play online poker" idiots) is entitled to their say. To disagree with them is fine too.. when it is done in a thoughtful, polite manner. I think as poker players that we have something great here. I think that if we all thought the same way, we'd be diminishing the power of the forum. That's my two cents and my last post on this topic. Sincerely, Lee | ||
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| Re: Article on random number generation, 4 POKER, 10. May 2003 22:11 | ||
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| I won't speak for anyone but myself. When I heard you speak so negatively about on-line poker and how much cheating you felt there was involved, I couldn't help but wonder why it would matter to you what sites we prefer to play at than. Why would you even care? For me, I wouldn't even bother giving you any feedback on the matter. And as far as you offending me...think about it. Because you did. Maybe you're bored with your job(as you mentioned), but i'm certainly not bored with mine, and to hear you knock what I do for a living with no proof but rumors, is offensive to me. maybe you didn't think that you were but yes, indirectly you can be taking away from my livelyhood. (and think about all the people who do play on-line to try and earn a little extra cash or are just trying to have fun with it. All i'm asking is that unless you can put it in writing that there are programs out there where people are ripping everybody off and stealing their money, I'd prefer it if you kept those rumors to yourself because IMHO, you're starting to sound like the guy who comes on here and posts all those RIP-OFF SCAM articles. Although he may have had a bad experience with a particular site, do you think he has the right to damage Mike Caro's livelyhood and reputation? I don't. (he's probably another one of those bad players who wants to complain about going broke because he had no business playing in the first place-and just felt like making everyone else here buy in to his views, and one's that have shown no merit...at least to me they haven't) What I'm trying to convey to you is if you're not comfortable with something than sometimes it's just better to keep that to yourself. Let the others be the judge if on-line poker is good for them. Thousands of people have been quite successful with the poker sites they are playing on and for you to persuade them with inaccurate information is not right. I think we're all aware that people can cheat at things but you know what, that can happen anywhere at any given time. I used to play at a certain site that I had felt uncomfortable with, but I chose to simply switch to another one' one that I am very pleased with now, but I would never induldge any of that information on a poker forum where people are coming here to get good and sound advice and feel comfortable about the game and/or choices they may have made. it may not be your cup of tea, but just think for a moment that to some... it may be. Take Chasepoker for example; he loves playing on paradise poker, well somebody else may not. But if he has been successful with that site, than so be it. The more people that are willing to bash on-line poker, the greater chance it has to becoming obsolete. I would never knock your job, and all i'm asking is that you don't knock mine. Poker has become very popular over the past several years, and for me and alot of others as well, would prefer it to stay that way. If you want to share your views on poker and theory and mathematics, than why don't you try adding some of your good advice on those subjects. We are here to learn from one another and to help each other when we can, so let's try to get back to poker and keep it fun, friendly and informative. (heck, I love listening to all these mathematical questions and solutions... am I in their league on this subject, No, I am not, but at least it's positive and intersting reading material and it gets the mind to work in a positive way). I just want you to be positive about poker, that's all. But if poker really isn't for you, than maybe you should spend more time at doing something you really enjoy. Thank you, 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Article on random number generation, Swagman, 11. May 2003 00:21 | ||
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| I'm suspicious as to why your getting inflamed. I don't think I said anything that should make you so angry unless your a afraid something I said against on-line gambling. If your getting money from Planetpoker.com are another on-line affliation then I can understand your hostility. My intentions were never to try and persaude readers not to play on-line. In fact, theres certainly alot of advantages for playing on-line. A very big one is that your playing at the comfort of your own home. Like me I have to travel some distance to play poker and the only poker I can play is stupid low-limit bologne. However I could never work the nerve up to do it myself for the following reasons. Twice I had one 100 dollars on a promotional gimick that one of the on-line sites was doing. The first 100 dollars they credited to my account without any difficulties, but the second time I won it was like pulling a tooth out for them to give it to me. I had to threated to take it to the on-line gaming commision before they give me my 100 dollars. Secondly I had considered to play for real money on truepoker.com but when I saw that I'd be giving my money to some place in West Indies. I decided against that too. Thirdly, my real reason was that I decided it was to ripe for the possibility of cheating. | ||
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| Re: Article on random number generation, Big_Slick, 10. May 2003 19:45 | ||
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| The cheaters don't tell anyone.. the software companys eventually figure it out on their own. As with any new technology (which the internet was back then) there are always bugs in the code. | ||
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| Re: Article on random number generation, chasepoker, 11. May 2003 05:28 | ||
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| I am just a regular Jo schmo with no affiation to anyone except myself. My experiences of online poker ( any poker really ) go like this : First 6 months : lost about $200 playing $5 tournys and $.05/1 HE ( limit and NL ) Loved every second of losing. Second 6 months : Won more than i lost read a few books but still could not ever get above the initial $50 i out in. Became dubious about online card distribion, read up a bit about it realised it was just my poor play. Third 6 Months : Read some more, started reading here, started learning about the game, realised the rake on a $5 Tourny at Paradise is 20% as opposed to 10% above $5 swtiched to $10 and above tourny's. Breaking even. Last 6 months : Started to apply my knowledge, started winning consistantly and now go into most Low limit games on line confident i can beat them as i have aquired superior KNOWLEDGE to my opponents. Now i dont know which stage you might be at ( that is to anyone ) but i bet you most people who are good poker players go through a similar experience. Can we please post all " Is online poker fixed " posts into NOT QUITE POKER as it isnt really poker is it ? Sorry for the essay, be happy people its only a game ( unless you are a pro then its your job), but hey its still a game ( and what a great job ). 7 High's Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: Article on random number generation, XJ, 13. May 2003 09:28 | ||
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| Wow. Scary. This is a page a couple of links away from that article: http://www.cigital.com/news/index.php?pg=art&artid=20 Clearly the software when that article was written (1999) was beatable. Anyone know of a follow up reply from ASF, or any of the sites that use(d) that software to fix the problem? And where was asfsoftware.com gone? | ||
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