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Server Time: 11/20/2009 7:50:04 PM PACIFIC |
 Defense, JLenart, 7. May 2003 09:05 | ||
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| I've been thinking lately about a subject that I'd love some more information on from the more experieced folks here (read as 4Poker, Nathaniel, stdioh et al.) So I flop what is top pair and top kicker, lets just say I hold AK and an A flops with like a 6 and an 8. I bet and some guy calls so I put him on a draw to a straight. the turn and river blank and with no flush showing. bet and he calls on each round. I turn over my AK and he shows me a 86s. How should my thought process work to defend against this. Also what about someone in mid position who flops his low or mid set and calls to the river and hits you with a raise. Other than noting this strategy and watching this player more closely in the future is there anything else I can do. I got stung more than once by these manuevers in the past few days. Thanks, John | ||
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| Re: Defense, Swagman, 7. May 2003 09:16 | ||
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| A raise pre-flop with AK should scare Mr. 8,6 off, if it doesnt then your beaten, but thats about the best thing that you can do. Also when Mr middle player whose been limping in all along until he sees the river card and he suddenly raises. Well you'll never get a bigger tell in your lifetime to FOLD right then and there. | ||
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| Re: Defense, shorn, 7. May 2003 09:19 | ||
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| Also, if Mr. 86s never raises you, then HE has lost $$ and not you. Not much you can do to combat that. I suggest that you must continue to bet just in case the straight draw is what he has. The only other thing to do is check the river for sure even if the straight doesn't come. That way, you can't lose two bets because he can't raise you. Keep at it and good luck. | ||
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| Re: Defense, Mark, 7. May 2003 09:28 | ||
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| > I've been thinking lately about a subject that I'd love some more information on > from the more experieced folks here (read as 4Poker, Nathaniel, stdioh et > al.) > > So I flop what is top pair and top kicker, lets just say I hold AK and an A > flops with like a 6 and an 8. I bet and some guy calls so I put him on a draw to > a straight. the turn and river blank and with no flush showing. bet and he > calls on each round. I turn over my AK and he shows me a 86s. How should my > thought process work to defend against this. Also what about someone in mid > position who flops his low or mid set and calls to the river and hits you with a > raise. Other than noting this strategy and watching this player more closely in > the future is there anything else I can do. I got stung more than once by these > manuevers in the past few days. > > Thanks, > > John There is not much you can do against that kind of play. If you are raising pre-flop with AK and someone calls you to the river with 86, there is nothing you can do, but congradulate him and hope he does it again. He is allowing you to draw for free when he is in the lead, which you always want. With top pair top kicker, you should not be betting the river heads up. Check call most of the time. you are only likely to get called when you are beat, like in this example. But you should be calling after you check because many players will bluff at you (because of your check) I would have to be raised before i would think i was beat. Against a set there is not difference. You can't assume you're up against one until some one puts in a raise. And if they do, depending on who they are, you may be correct to call. Try check-calling the river more often with top pair ( keep betting stronger hands). If you have position you will save money when you are beat. Those plays are what you have to expect in any hold'em game. But when these players just call you, you are getting a free play. Sometimes you will further improve you hand and win big pots. mark | ||
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| Re: Defense, Mark, 7. May 2003 09:28 | ||
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| > I've been thinking lately about a subject that I'd love some more information on > from the more experieced folks here (read as 4Poker, Nathaniel, stdioh et > al.) > > So I flop what is top pair and top kicker, lets just say I hold AK and an A > flops with like a 6 and an 8. I bet and some guy calls so I put him on a draw to > a straight. the turn and river blank and with no flush showing. bet and he > calls on each round. I turn over my AK and he shows me a 86s. How should my > thought process work to defend against this. Also what about someone in mid > position who flops his low or mid set and calls to the river and hits you with a > raise. Other than noting this strategy and watching this player more closely in > the future is there anything else I can do. I got stung more than once by these > manuevers in the past few days. > > Thanks, > > John There is not much you can do against that kind of play. If you are raising pre-flop with AK and someone calls you to the river with 86, there is nothing you can do, but congradulate him and hope he does it again. He is allowing you to draw for free when he is in the lead, which you always want. With top pair top kicker, you should not be betting the river heads up. Check call most of the time. you are only likely to get called when you are beat, like in this example. But you should be calling after you check because many players will bluff at you (because of your check) I would have to be raised before i would think i was beat. Against a set there is not difference. You can't assume you're up against one until some one puts in a raise. And if they do, depending on who they are, you may be correct to call. Try check-calling the river more often with top pair ( keep betting stronger hands). If you have position you will save money when you are beat. Those plays are what you have to expect in any hold'em game. But when these players just call you, you are getting a free play. Sometimes you will further improve you hand and win big pots. mark | ||
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| Re: Defense, Roy Cooke, 7. May 2003 09:32 | ||
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| Well, you should consider yourself fortunate that he did not raise. He played his hand badly to your benefit.. In poker there are two kinds of problems...those you can do something about and those you can't...Keep your focus on those you can do something about! Roy Cooke on 7. May 2003 09:05 JLenart wrote: > I've been thinking lately about a subject that I'd love some more information on > from the more experieced folks here (read as 4Poker, Nathaniel, stdioh et > al.) > > So I flop what is top pair and top kicker, lets just say I hold AK and an A > flops with like a 6 and an 8. I bet and some guy calls so I put him on a draw to > a straight. the turn and river blank and with no flush showing. bet and he > calls on each round. I turn over my AK and he shows me a 86s. How should my > thought process work to defend against this. Also what about someone in mid > position who flops his low or mid set and calls to the river and hits you with a > raise. Other than noting this strategy and watching this player more closely in > the future is there anything else I can do. I got stung more than once by these > manuevers in the past few days. > > Thanks, > > John | ||
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| Re: Defense, JLenart, 7. May 2003 09:38 | ||
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| Thanks Roy! | ||
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| Re: Defense, Piers Majestyk, 7. May 2003 12:49 | ||
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| As the others said be glad you didn't lose more with the 86 hand, I would have raised you on the flop to try and get it heads up or win it right there to protect my hand from being counterfeited ot from you hitting two pair and with AK you probably would just have to call me all the way down. Someone said you shouldn't be betting the river when heads up and a better option is checking and calling. I believe that is not very good advice. If I hold top pair and top kicker I am damn sure going to bet it heads up to get the maximum from players who will call you down with a weaker kicker or even medium pair. The one instance where I might check the river is when I am fairly sure the player was on a flush or straight draw and didn't get there and his only option to win the pot is to bluff. If I check to him and he bets I will raise and give him the chance to throw his bluff away instead of just calling. Sometimes you are going to get beat by those two pairs but you are giving away to much by consistently checking on the river in fear of those things happening. | ||
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| Re: Defense, shorn, 7. May 2003 13:01 | ||
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| Piers- I understand your strategy, but I am not sure in this instance I agree. JLenart had bet both the flop and turn and had been called both times. If the flop had been called and then J checked the turn and the opponent checked behind, then I would bet the river assuming nothing came that completed a draw. Perhaps your experience has been different than mine, but I have found that the more positive EV play when you bet both the flop and turn, then check the river to avoid losing two bets when you are beat and maybe induce your opponent to bluff at the pot on the river with a busted draw. Bu showing weakness on the end, you can often get someone to try and steal which wins you that extra bet. I would like to hear your specific thoughts on why you think betting the river (after betting the flop and turn and being called) is the right way to go. Perhaps I need to adjust my strategy at times. Thanks, Steve | ||
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| Re: Defense, Piers Majestyk, 7. May 2003 16:14 | ||
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| Steve, If I raise with AK and get called and the flop comes down A86 rainbow I am not really going to be scared unless I get raised on the turn which is a pretty good indicator that I might be beat. If I just get called on the turn when a rag hits I am going to put the caller on an A with a weaker kicker than mine and I want to extract that extra bet on the river and make them pay for calling with those hands. Many players will call your raise with AXs or medium pairs and just can't give them up when that A flops, you should make them pay for their transgressions. Now different flop of KQ2 (two hearts), I bet the flop and get raised by the player. Player does not have me beat at this point and is trying to get a free card with a lesser hand, if he flopped top two or a set of 2's then he should wait until the turn to raise me generally (but read Roy's article of many months past about sissy bottoms differing from this strategy knowing Roy's play and what he would think, good article, but most people aren't Sissy Bottoms that you will be facing) in this situation. If I get raised on the flop in this instance I will reraise and lead again on the turn unless a heart falls which may change my play. If just called in the KQ2 flop and a 5 turns (or maybe whatever turns I will probably bet unless it is a heart), If I don't get raised on the turn I will fire another bet at the river unless a J or ten falls on the river I would probably check and call or if I think the player is drawing to the flush then I will check to try to induce a bluff. This of course is how I would proceed in most instances but dealing with a cagey opponent I might well differ this approach. Again this is just the way I play it, I want to extract every possible bet when I figure to have the best of it. I believe this is one of the main reasons that has helped me to do very well. In my opinion one of the most important components of what separates the truly great players from the good players is the ability to get the maximum from the hands in which they are involved. Don't be timid on the river, sure you will cracked by that ole 86 two pair every now and then but you can't run scared of it. | ||
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| Re: Defense, shorn, 8. May 2003 05:21 | ||
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| Piers- Thanks for the response. In other words, unless the texture of the board is such that something other than the freak straight (gutter) comes, you bet the river for value so that A-rag hands will call you. That sounds like a good play and might be a leak in my game right now. I seem to always be afraid of "monsters under the bed" on the river. I realize (as you point out) that it is situation dependent (board, opponent(s)), but it seems like your method can add a bet or two per session that I might have been missing. Thanks again, Steve | ||
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| Re: Defense, Swagman, 7. May 2003 19:06 | ||
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| agreed. the river is almost always worth a bet | ||
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| Re: Defense, Nathaniel Brous, 7. May 2003 21:53 | ||
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| Hey John, Comments interspersed on 7. May 2003 09:05 JLenart wrote: > I've been thinking lately about a subject that I'd love some more information on from the more experieced folks here (read as 4Poker, Nathaniel, stdioh et al.) Side note here. Valuable information is valuable no matter who gives it. There are many poker players in the world with less experience than I who are more gifted in poker than I. But... having said that, I will throw in my 2 cents. > So I flop what is top pair and top kicker, lets just say I hold AK and an A flops with like a 6 and an 8. We are missing some important information here. What happened preflop? How many people took a flop? What position are you in? What position is your opponent in? Position can not be overstated in holdem. Before the cards are dealt, the first thing you need to be thinking is where am I? When this is second nature, it will show up in your posts also. >I bet and some guy calls so I put him on a draw to a straight. the turn and river blank and with no flush showing.bet and he calls on each round. Ok. It appears that you were in the blinds or early position. Since you didn't mention it, I am assuming that there was no preflop raise. This is not really a bad thing. I will rarely raise my blinds on a low limit table. You're not going to shake them and you are making it a lot easier for them to call a flop bet. Now I must also assume that the turn and river did not contain a ten, nine, seven, five, or four. >I turn over my AK and he shows me a 86s. Cool beans. He saved you money. Thank him (silently). >How should my thought process work to defend against this. The only thing I "might" have done differently is check/call the river (which in this case would have cost the same). You put him on a straight draw. You got to ask yourself why he would call your river bet. If you put him on an Ax then betting makes more sense. All you really had to dodge is the river card. After all, he made no attempt to raise you :). As far as defending against it, don't. Celebrate it. Your opponent gave you money. >Also what about someone in mid position who flops his low or mid set and calls to the river and hits you with a raise. Other than noting this strategy and watching this player more closely in the future is there anything else I can do. I got stung more than once by these manuevers in the past few days. Well...it's hard to say without knowing your play better. It's possible that you played those hands (against trips) perfectly. It could also be that you are overplaying your hands and your opponents are so sure that you will continue to bet that they will play in this fashion. It is kind of suprising that they will wait to the river (as opposed to the turn), but maybe the board was so uncoordinated that they could do so. A final few thoughts. Countless times, I have given the same advice Roy did. Worry about the things that you CAN change. It's excellent advice. And after reading it, I thought to myself, "Self...is there something he could change?" and came up with a little something. Everything happens at the poker table and to a certain extent we become numb to odd defying or inexplicable plays of our opponents. There is something you can do though that might help. You probably fit into a certain style of play at the moment and in time that will change as you progress. But for now, you MAY have been pegged as a player who plays "that certain way" and people could be using it against you. This is entirely conjecture...but might be worth giving a little thought to. - Nathaniel Brous .Thanks, John | ||
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| Re: Defense, 4 POKER, 8. May 2003 02:08 | ||
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| on 7. May 2003 21:53 Nathaniel Brous wrote: > Hey John, > Comments interspersed > > on 7. May 2003 09:05 JLenart wrote: > > I've been thinking lately about a subject that I'd love some more information on > from the more experieced folks here (read as 4Poker, Nathaniel, stdioh et al.) > > Side note here. Valuable information is valuable no matter who gives it. There are > many poker players in the world with less experience than I who are more gifted in > poker than I. But... having said that, I will throw in my 2 cents. > > > So I flop what is top pair and top kicker, lets just say I hold AK and an A flops > with like a 6 and an 8. > > We are missing some important information here. What happened preflop? How many > people took a flop? What position are you in? What position is your opponent in? > Position can not be overstated in holdem. Before the cards are dealt, the first > thing you need to be thinking is where am I? When this is second nature, it will > show up in your posts also. > > >I bet and some guy calls so I put him on a draw to a straight. > the turn and river blank and with no flush showing.bet and he calls on each round. > > > Ok. It appears that you were in the blinds or early position. Since you didn't > mention it, I am assuming that there was no preflop raise. This is not really a bad > thing. I will rarely raise my blinds on a low limit table. You're not going to > shake them and you are making it a lot easier for them to call a flop bet. Now I > must also assume that the turn and river did not contain a ten, nine, seven, five, or > four. > > >I turn over my AK and he shows me a 86s. > > Cool beans. He saved you money. Thank him (silently). > > >How should my thought process work to defend against this. > > The only thing I "might" have done differently is check/call the river (which in > this case would have cost the same). You put him on a straight draw. You got to ask > yourself why he would call your river bet. If you put him on an Ax then betting > makes more sense. All you really had to dodge is the river card. After all, he made > no attempt to raise you :). As far as defending against it, don't. Celebrate it. > Your opponent gave you money. > > >Also what about someone in mid position who flops his low or mid set and calls to > the river and hits you with a raise. Other than noting this strategy and watching > this player more closely in the future is there anything else I can do. I got stung > more than once by these manuevers in the past few days. > > Well...it's hard to say without knowing your play better. It's possible that you > played those hands (against trips) perfectly. It could also be that you are > overplaying your hands and your opponents are so sure that you will continue to bet > that they will play in this fashion. It is kind of suprising that they will wait to > the river (as opposed to the turn), but maybe the board was so uncoordinated that > they could do so. > > A final few thoughts. Countless times, I have given the same advice Roy did. Worry > about the things that you CAN change. It's excellent advice. And after reading it, > I thought to myself, "Self...is there something he could change?" and came up with a > little something. > > Everything happens at the poker table and to a certain extent we become numb to odd > defying or inexplicable plays of our opponents. There is something you can do though > that might help. You probably fit into a certain style of play at the moment and in > time that will change as you progress. But for now, you MAY have been pegged as a > player who plays "that certain way" and people could be using it against you. This > is entirely conjecture...but might be worth giving a little thought to. > > - Nathaniel Brous > > > .Thanks, John > Good Post, Nathaniel. | ||
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| Re: Defense, JLenart, 8. May 2003 07:57 | ||
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| Thanks Nathaniel. I'll definately give some thought to overplaying my hand in certain situations to avoid the trap of a set. Thanks again to everyone who has given me some very constructive critisism. I'll be playing in my first B&M tourny at the end of the month and I hope I fair well. John | ||
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| Re: Defense, 4 POKER, 8. May 2003 09:48 | ||
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| Hey John, You've received some very valuable information from what I can see. When You Play in that tournament, try and take what you have learned and apply it there. Don't get discouraged if you don't win it, though. Tournaments are a lot of fun but there is also a great deal of short-term luck that is involved with them. Just play your best game you know how, concentrate, focus, and just try to beat your opponents one at a time. Have Fun, and know that We are all rooting for you, Good luck and lots of it! Dave | ||
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| Re: Defense, stdioh, 8. May 2003 13:58 | ||
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| This guy is dumb...he's not betting his 2 pair, so in the long run he is paying you off, by making it easy for you. What you do have to watch for is somebody slowplaying a set, but they'll usually start throwing money in when you hit the turn and you can cool off then. | ||
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