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Server Time: 11/20/2009 6:39:54 PM PACIFIC |
 UTG or early bottom 2 pair NL, jdsalinger, 5. May 2003 11:38 | ||
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| I consider this a pretty weak hand with lots of ways to loose a bunch of money. how do you choose to play this with about 4-5 limpers and a flop with 2 of a suit and a 1 gap or how differently do you play with a 2 gap or 1 with 3 gaps. How do you prefer to play it short stack vs. medium vs. large stack that 1 or 2 that have you covered for at least 67%. How does it change with an A on board and no Q or J or 10? With an A on board you can try to extract maximum money but are still very vulnerable. Obviously it depends on the opponents and who will bet where but for hypothetical reasons lets say 1 is above average, 2 average and 2 below average random positions. | ||
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| Re: UTG or early bottom 2 pair NL, stdioh, 6. May 2003 08:13 | ||
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| When you flop your bottom 2 you are probably good at the moment, but the chance is very large that somebody will draw out on you. Thus you should be making a pot sized bet here so that only other made hands not as good as yours can call. Hopefully you'll take the pot down then and there or get a caller who is drawing and doesn't know it. | ||
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| Re: UTG or early bottom 2 pair NL, Mark, 6. May 2003 11:38 | ||
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| HI my thoughts are below the individual questions. NL is a very situational game and alot of consideration must be made for your opponents and position. This is probably more important than your cards. > I consider this a pretty weak hand with lots of ways to loose a bunch of money. In some circumstances it can be a big money winner. > how do you choose to play this with about 4-5 limpers and a flop with 2 of a > suit and a 1 gap with so many limpers you need a big bet to shut them out. 1.5 to 2 x the pot. Only betting the pot gives all strong draws reason to call, and if anyone calls you, the other opponents will be getting good odds. Also, you must consider the board. If the cards are bunched in the low or high end you are probably safe (at the moment). Not too many players limp with 2 high cards. If the cards are 6-9-J you may be in trouble as many players limp with 9-J. If i'm in early position i'm going to bet 1.5 times the pot and see what happens. If i'm in late i MAY go all-in if i have a large stack, but with so many limpers, i may just make a 2 to 3 x pot bet. If i'm short stacked I may just bet the pot and hope for a safe on the turn. Then go all-in. This is very susceptable to someone slow playing a set > or how differently do you play with a 2 gap or 1 with 3 gaps. With more gaps the hand becomes much stronger. draws are less likely and a pot bet is appropriate. I would be hoping to get up against top pair. If i'm called on the flop, i'd bet the pot again on the turn, then try to sell it on the river. if i get played back at, it all depends on the player. if he would reraise with top pair, i'm all -in. if he's tight-passive, i throw the hand away. Also, who calls the flop may change my play. If a tight -passive calls the flop, he probably has something. I'm going to keep betting but not my whole stack. If someone who is loose or tilting or is taking shots at me, calls the flop, i'm all -in on the turn. > How do you prefer to play it short stack vs. medium vs. large stack that 1 or 2 > that have you covered for at least 67%. If i'm short stacked i'm going all-in on the flop or turn, as long as the board isn't too scary - the more gaps the better. >How does it change with an A on board with an A on board, A-rags may call you down and A-J, A10 may rerasie you. You will make more money with this kind of board, if they don't improve to 2 pair. > and no Q or J or 10? With an A on board you can try to extract maximum money but > are still very vulnerable. Obviously it depends on the opponents and who will > bet where but for hypothetical reasons lets say 1 is above average, 2 average > and 2 below average random positions. This all depends on how they play, do they draw without current pot odds, bet/raise their draws, raise top pair, slow play sets,etc. For me, it all depends on what i think everyone else has. With 4 or 5 limpers, i don't have a read on anybody when the flop comes, so i'm going to bet until some one stops me. If a loose player calls i'm not too worried, but if tight players call i will slowdown. What would really worry me is being checkraised from an early position player. I'd probably be checkraised by a set or top 2 pair. Depending on the size of bet, i may lay down my hand. my 2 cents mark | ||
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| Re: UTG or early bottom 2 pair NL, Andrew Wells, 6. May 2003 23:36 | ||
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| If you have several preflop callers, you might want to just make a pot sized bet on the flop, and use the turn to make a bigger move if it doesn't look like anyone helped. This assumes everyone has decent stacks. If by betting pot on the flop you would leave a potential caller with enough chips to call all-in on the turn for 4:1 odds then you would be better off pushing all-in on the flop and hoping you're not up against a set. It also really depends on what your bottom two pair are. If you played JTs and flopped bottom two then look out, that's going to be trouble. Something raggedy out of the blind is much nicer of course. If there is an ace on the flop, then it might be better to play for a checkraise. If you do this, it should be over the top all-in. You can also sometimes lay down bottom two pair if there is a significant bet in front of you and two players called cold. This means anyone who flopped a good draw is going to call your raise. Now the pot will be too large on the turn to fold, unless you both have huge stacks. If you are bet into consider just making a small raise on the flop, enough to convince a pocket pair or top pair weak kicker that you're serious. Most important of all is not to try and trap with this fragile hand if there's an ace on the flop and you get bet into. | ||
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| Re: UTG or early bottom 2 pair NL, Mark, 7. May 2003 09:04 | ||
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| Hi Andrew I mostly agree with you post except for opening the flop with a pot size bet. > If you have several preflop callers, you might want to just make a pot sized bet on > the flop, and use the turn to make a bigger move if it doesn't look like anyone > helped. This initially gives 2:1 to the first caller. Any top pair or solid draw will call (most of the time, especially with my image). After that, the other players will be getting 3:1 and 4:1 to draw. I don't want 3 or 4 people drawing when i have a low two pair, which is quite possible if i only bet the pot. I see lots of players calling (small) pot size bets with weak drawing hands. by betting more than the pot you will eliminate far more players. With limpers, the pot is still small so you should easily be able to cover the bet. With fewer callers, you can read hands much more easily, and a set may make itself known right away. I am looking to take the hand down on the flop. If i get callers, and i only want 1 or 2, i want to be able to read them ( have control over them). By making a pot size bet, (i believe) i would be setting myself up to lose more money as draws have odds and sets will slow play. If you end up with 4 or 5 weak draws out against you, you have probably become an underdog. this has alot to do with my image. In NLH i project a loose agg ( sometimes crazy) image and get lots of calls. I can make alot of money with bottom 2 pair if someone who will slow play a set makes a pot size bet on the flop. I can go all in ( or a big bet) and get called by top pair A kicker. | ||
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| Re: UTG or early bottom 2 pair NL, Andrew Wells, 7. May 2003 14:23 | ||
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| What you say is true about a single caller on a valid draw. However a pot sized bet should eliminate all but the nut draw player. The set you just lose to, and the big pair you gain from so these tend to wash out over time. Realize that someone on a draw is not getting the right price on the flop alone, and you can't just figure 2:1 to get there by the river since there's going to be a massive bet if a blank hits the turn. They would only be getting the right price if they have odds to play all-in. Otherwise the draws have negative implied odds since they are going to be getting worse than 2:1 on the turn as well. | ||
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