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Big Slick in Large Field, RamDannyboy, 4. May 2003 18:02
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I have given this hand some thought but I'm still not sure what to make of it. Rather loose HE table.

6 players limp to me in the SB with Ac Kd. I complete and BB check his option. 8 handed.

Flop: 3h 8c 3c

I, BB and EP1 check. EP2 bet, All call except BB. 7 handed.

Turn: Ah

I bet out. 4 callers. 5 handed.

River: 8h

Now what?

I think there are issues on all streets and would appreciate your views. I will post the results shortly. Thanks.
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Re: Big Slick in Large Field, 4 POKER, 4. May 2003 19:42
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With 8 players in this hand I wouldn't have called the flop. The game was rather loose and with a board of 3-3-8, somebody easily could have had trips, and that includes the free look at the flop given to the big blind as well, so don't exclude his possible holdings, either.
The best draw that you had was a runner, runner flush draw but with so many players already in, if you hit your flush you might still lose to a full house.
You had no money invested in this hand except for the 1/2 bet that you limped in with. This is not a favorable flop for A-K, as you can see,
because you hit your best card on the turn, the Ace, and look what happened on the river. Not only did another 8 come up, now the board reads 3h-8c-3c-Ah-8h, bringing the backdoor flush.
You loose to any player holding a 3. You lose to any player who's holding an 8(and that is very possible as well, it was the highest pair out there on the flop), and you lose to any player who's holding two hearts in their hand. That is a horrible board for AK off. There were just too many players who were willing to call the flop and the turn, I would have without a doubt check-folded right on the flop.
You chose to limp in with a strong holding which is not a bad idea sometimes; it can add great deception to your hand if you do happen to flop top pair or something as equally strong. There are many players who would chose to raise pre-flop with A-K, regardless of their position- which is not a bad play either- it's more of a value raise into a large field with a strong drawing hand.
However, it's important that you don't lose sight of the lack of strength that this hand has once the pot becomes very multi-way. It is a big holding, but with 8 players seeing the flop, you must hit a pair or at least a draw to the straight. And with a paired flop like the one you had, makes this holding even worse to draw to.
Don't be drawing to hit a pair on the turn, you will in most situations lose alot of money when you do hit it because you will also have to factor in the possibilities of somebody else making a better hand than yours- if you weren't beat already. Don't forget about the flush draws that players may be holding, either.

I hope this helps.

4 POKER
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Re: Big Slick in Large Field, stdioh, 5. May 2003 11:14
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I would have raised it preflop even from the small blind. The reason for this is twofold. For one thing your raise from the blinds is scary, so when you don't hit and check out on the flop you might manage to get it checked around by other players fearing a checkraise. If somebody does bet, you might checkraise the flop on a bluff and convince the table that you are holding AA. If you do hit, then you can bet out and that bet won't look suspect since you were the preflop raiser. Also, you might chase out the big blind with your raise if he is on garbage and thinning the field down even a little will help you.

Now if you have raised preflop, then you will have pot odds to call a bet on the flop with your overcards unless you have reason to belive that somebody has already got 2 pair or better, and like I said you might try checkraising if it checks around to a late position bettor because then you still have pot odds justifying your chase, you are representing a made hand so when you hit it won't look too good for you, and you're thinning down the number of opponents who can draw out on you if you make. Then if you don't turn your hand, you can check out again and hopefully your opponent will be content to let it go by and give you a free river. Surprisingly enough, if you checkraise the flop and your opponent just calls and then you checkraise the turn, many opponents will get a sheepish look and throw away their top pair, feeling stupid to be checkraised twice.
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Re: Result - Big Slick in Large Field, RamDannyboy, 5. May 2003 15:32
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In the end the river got checked around. And much to my surprise my hand was good.

Despite the result, I actually think I should have folded the flop. With a large field and out of position, I needed a solid flop to proceed. It didn't happen so when EP2 bet out with 4 callers, I was most likely behind.

As this was online I was able to review the history and its always interesting to see the other holdings. They were:

Qs Qd EP2 so passive. Should raise preflop.
Ad 7s Low kicker.
Kc Qc Flush draw, I would have raised the flop.
4c 9c Flush draw.

Anyway, thank again for your feedback.
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Re: Result - Big Slick in Large Field, NiceFella, 5. May 2003 20:50
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This is the sort of wimpy, passive poker that makes me salivate. I don't think a single player at this table played their hand correctly.

Because no one is raising, no one has any clue if their hand is any good. This leads to the timid, decisionless play.

You MUST raise your big hands before the flop at a table like this! The other players are idiots, and you are almost certain to be holding the best hand. Against a large field of no-foldem opponents, AKo will win almost 20 percent of the time. That makes you a 4:1 underdog, but a raise will almost certainly be called around, which is a 7:1 payoff. It's one of the surest bets in poker. If anyone folds, that's great. If you get reraised, well, you've learned something which can save you money later in the hand.

Everyone calling the flop is ridiculous. There aren't enough cards in the deck to give everyone a hand which matches this flop. Almost everyone has a clear fold here. However, thanks to the passive play and probably terrible cards of your weak opponents, you've probably got pot odds to pull of another card and pick up a club draw or pair. Even if you're drawing dead, they probably won't make you pay too dearly anyway.

I'm glad to see you finally waking up to your hand and betting the turn. This has a lot of merit: if anyone is lurking with trips, they can raise you now, and you'll be able to fold with confidence. If you don't get raised, you can bank on having the best hand. There is the problem now, however, that there are two different flush draws active. Between the trips and the flushes, you're probably going to lose this hand, but hey, you're getting paid 4:1 on this turn bet and it's better to be a bettor than a caller.

But that 8h is pretty much the death card. The flush has come in, but a flush hand probably won't bet because the full house is in effect, and the table is full of wimpy checkers and callers anyway. At least you're getting a free showdown, which was part of the justification for calling the flop.

By the way, where and when does this group of rock stars get together? I'd love to join you for a game....

This post is a little harsh but is meant in fun. You've got to be a lot more aggressive in your game, especially when you are playing with such a great group of passive calling stations.
:-)
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Re: Result - Big Slick in Large Field, 4 POKER, 5. May 2003 22:18
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on 5. May 2003 20:50 NiceFella wrote:
> This is the sort of wimpy, passive poker that makes me salivate. I don't think a single
> player at this table played their hand correctly.
>
> Because no one is raising, no one has any clue if their hand is any good. This leads to
> the timid, decisionless play.
>
> You MUST raise your big hands before the flop at a table like this! The other players are
> idiots, and you are almost certain to be holding the best hand. Against a large field of
> no-foldem opponents, AKo will win almost 20 percent of the time. That makes you a 4:1
> underdog, but a raise will almost certainly be called around, which is a 7:1 payoff. It's
> one of the surest bets in poker. If anyone folds, that's great. If you get reraised, well,
> you've learned something which can save you money later in the hand.
>
> Everyone calling the flop is ridiculous. There aren't enough cards in the deck to give
> everyone a hand which matches this flop. Almost everyone has a clear fold here. However,
> thanks to the passive play and probably terrible cards of your weak opponents, you've
> probably got pot odds to pull of another card and pick up a club draw or pair. Even if
> you're drawing dead, they probably won't make you pay too dearly anyway.
>
> I'm glad to see you finally waking up to your hand and betting the turn. This has a lot
> of merit: if anyone is lurking with trips, they can raise you now, and you'll be able to
> fold with confidence. If you don't get raised, you can bank on having the best hand. There
> is the problem now, however, that there are two different flush draws active. Between the
> trips and the flushes, you're probably going to lose this hand, but hey, you're getting
> paid 4:1 on this turn bet and it's better to be a bettor than a caller.
>
> But that 8h is pretty much the death card. The flush has come in, but a flush hand
> probably won't bet because the full house is in effect, and the table is full of wimpy
> checkers and callers anyway. At least you're getting a free showdown, which was part of
> the justification for calling the flop.
>
> By the way, where and when does this group of rock stars get together? I'd love to join
> you for a game....
>
> This post is a little harsh but is meant in fun. You've got to be a lot more aggressive
> in your game, especially when you are playing with such a great group of passive calling
> stations.
> :-)
>


The problem I see with his call on the flop is, he's forgetting that AK does not play well into an entire field unless you flop something! The hand is so much stronger against one or two opponents because you can win the pot with just having AK high. But with several callers you have to flop a pair or have some kind of draw in order to continue; keep in mind he had 7 callers in this hand with him! Because he bet the turn after hitting an Ace, doesn't mean he has the best hand just because noone raised him. That's the problem with games that are extremely passive. Yes, they give you a chance to catch up, but the downside to that is, they're never betting their hands either. With a game that passive, I'd be raising alot more pre-flop with strong and semi-strong hands hoping to knock some of them out so I can get a better feel with my own holdings, and if I did flop something good, I would be very aggressive with my betting and I would MAKE them pay to see the next card. Noone in a passive game is going to bet for you, so when you have the goods, bet and punish the ones who play 9-4 suited and A-7 offsuit.

It's important to realize that AK is a strong holding, but it's crutial to understand that this hand must hit if there are too many players involved.
It is one hand that can become very costly because players just don't know when to throw it away!

I'm glad he won the pot, but that is irrelavant to whether or not he should have played it in the first place,(after the flop). But just look at the junk these players were entering the pot with, A-7 offsuit, 9-4 hearts?? Remember, these hands were shown down at the river, and the BB had already folded!! If he was playing in just an average game with decent players, his hand would not have been good there- not on average, anyway. In order to truly profit from AK, you have to be able to "move" your opponents off their hands while also having a good read on your remaining opponents. The hand can be played very aggresively when flopping a pair, a draw, or just on strength alone, but one must have the ability to throw it away when they don't "catch good" if there are just too many players in the pot.

4 POKER
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Re: Result - Big Slick in Large Field, shorn, 6. May 2003 07:15
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4 POKER-

I completely agree. AKo in a large field is doggy doo doo if you don't flop anything. I see weak players push this hand all the way even with nothing and then lose to third pair from a calling station. If you hit nothing, you must fold to any significant action (you would need around 8-1 to call for your six outs IF you assume they are all clean AND that there is no raise coming). Also, in this passive game, you can draw at your AK for free because no one is likely to bet for you.

I know I fixed a leak in my game when I stopeed pushing AKo like it was AA and the flop came low.

Steve
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