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Server Time: 12/2/2008 7:20:16 PM PACIFIC |
 Slow playing flopped quads, Don Quixote, 3. May 2003 10:01 | ||
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| I have flopped quads twice in casino play and a couple of times on line. Most of the time, I dont get much action. Last night at Aztar in Evansville, IN, I started with tens in MP and raised. Six saw the flop. Flop checked around. Lovely tens on the flop. I was sure someone would raise the flop, but nope. Dont recall the turn card, but I wasnt taking any chances on it being checked around again, so I bet $10. Everyone folded. I just had to show my pocket tens. Bruce, a regular, setting on my right, said he would have checked to the river if necessary. Was Bruce right? This was a tough table full of regulars. I know, it doesn't sound tough since so many saw the flop, but it also was pretty loose. Ken M, if you read this forum, I am sure you know the regulars at the $5./10 holdem table? I will post a mini-trip report separately on this last night's venture. Don Quixote | ||
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| Re: Slow playing flopped quads, Don Quixote, 3. May 2003 10:03 | ||
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| Is there an edit feature on this forum. Anyway, I meant to say "bet the flop" and not "raise". Don Q. on 3. May 2003 10:01 Don Quixote wrote: > I have flopped quads twice in casino play and a couple of times on line. Most > of the time, I dont get much action. Last night at Aztar in Evansville, IN, I > started with tens in MP and raised. Six saw the flop. > Flop checked around. Lovely tens on the flop. I was sure someone would raise > the flop, but nope. Dont recall the turn card, but I wasnt taking any chances > on it being checked around again, so I bet $10. Everyone folded. I just had to > show my pocket tens. Bruce, a regular, setting on my right, said he would have > checked to the river if necessary. > > Was Bruce right? This was a tough table full of regulars. I know, it doesn't > sound tough since so many saw the flop, but it also was pretty loose. > > Ken M, if you read this forum, I am sure you know the regulars at the $5./10 > holdem table? > > I will post a mini-trip report separately on this last night's venture. > > Don Quixote > > | ||
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| Edit feature, chasepoker, 3. May 2003 12:38 | ||
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| The edit feature seems to me to be tempramental sometimes it works sometimes it doesnt. Should this post go in not quite poker ? 7 High's Chasepoker | ||
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| Re: Slow playing flopped quads, stdioh, 5. May 2003 09:32 | ||
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| The pencil to the right of your post. | ||
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| Re: Slow playing flopped quads, SendMoney, 3. May 2003 13:10 | ||
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| I still remember the most ridiculous hand I ever won. It was some years ago but I had QQ UTG and at a 4-8 table in a California card room 6 players capped the betting pre-flop. The flop comes Q Q 5. I check, the next player holding 55 checks, late postion player holding KK bets, button holding AA raises, I call, player with 55 re-raises, everybody calls. The turn brings a blank. 55 bets out, KK folds (he thru his KK on the table face up in disgust), AA calls, I call. River brings another blank, oddly 55 and AA check to me, so I of course bet. 55 calls, AA calls, and I over turn the Quads. The pot added up to something like $190-$200. After that hand I got up and left and 3 people asked to change to my seat - go figure. | ||
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| Re: Slow playing flopped quads, mroban, 3. May 2003 14:05 | ||
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| I love the way you played that hand. I am curious if I would have been tempted to raise on the river thinking these guys might call all the way to the end. Thats the way to play it. As for Don, knowing you had the nuts, letting the other guys pick up a card on the river was probably a right play and (I forget your position) if in early position bet and hope they think you are going for the steal. Same in D position as the check from your opponent followed by your raise might provoke a loose call. I suppose the only way I would bet it out on the turn is if there were a 4-straight flush on the board. Which would be great in a bad beat jackpot casino. But otherwise I agree that you should have checked to the river. If it is any consolation, odds are you wouldn't have gotten paid off on the river either, but if your opponent had A-x and picked up an ace he would probably call at the end (thinking you had possibly had some other pair). The hard thing about that hand is that clearly nobody else had a T. If you had A-10 you would have gotten action from another opponent holding 10-x (but of course would have had to worry about the full house). | ||
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| Re: Slow playing flopped quads, stdioh, 5. May 2003 09:37 | ||
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| In the case of flopping quad aces or kings, you've massively crippled the deck and have a problem. You really want somebody to bluff at it or improve to second best hand, so I'd say that slowplaying might be apropriate. When you flop small quads the slowplay is easy to pull off since nobody can have a great read on you. Nonetheless, if it is something like your tens, then you really have to bet it on the flop. Everybody is scared that somebody has a ten and of course nobody but you has one, so you're looking at really weak hands. The way to play this as the preflop bettor is to indicate a bluff with overcards or an overpair and just bet out. You're hoping that somebody will come along and you can build something of a pot to keep them roped in. By letting the flop get checked around there aren't going to be pot odds on the turn to keep somebody drawing. Also, if you do bet out on the flop and somebody has a pair other than the tens, they are almost certainly going to raise you for isolation. This allows you to just call them and get your slowplay value there by checkraising the turn. I'd say that quads are a hand that most people are very likely to go slow on, but the fact of the matter is that it is hard for your opponents to improve, since they lose outs and the board is scary. Now if you flop a straight flush, you're all set. You can sit there calling down bets and hoping that somebody has another made flush or better yet that another flush card comes and somebody else has the ace. With quads, you're most of the time best of leading with a bet. | ||
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| Re: Slow playing flopped quads, shorn, 5. May 2003 11:13 | ||
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| I agree. Unfortunately, the flop is probably where you are going to make most of your $$ with Quads, so you should definitely bet. If it is checked around, the odds won't be there for folks to chase. However, depending upon the board (lets say it is 733), many people will call a flop bet with two overcards hoping you have a 7. If an Ace or King comes on the turn, then you can check and try to go for a bigger pot. If not, check to the river and then bet the river trying to represent a steal. As stdioh points out, with a big pair turned quads, you have crippled the deck so there is little chance you can make a ton of $$. | ||
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| Re: Slow playing flopped quads, stdioh, 5. May 2003 11:35 | ||
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| If a board is coming AAX, I'll take AK over AA any day of the week. In fact, if the board is TTX I'd rather have AT than TT too. | ||
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| Re: Slow playing flopped quads, 4 POKER, 5. May 2003 12:11 | ||
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| ...Especially if the pot was raised pre-flop. The key to playing flopped quads is to bet! Noone will put you on that hand because most players think it is correct to slow play this hand where in essence your hand will be much more disguised if you bet the flop and to even raise it if somebody else bets into you. With a raised pot and/or multi-way action pre-flop, a lot of players will hang around to see if they can hit an overpair on the turn or maybe back into a flush or something. The hand has so much more deception when it is bet opposed to the check/call, check/raise play.(Especially the check/raise). When someone checks and than they check/raise the turn, that almost always screams out..."Nuts". If the pot wasn't raised coming in, and there are just a few players involved, depending on how tight or loose these players are, you might want to let one of them take over with the bet, but if they are loose, go ahead and bet it. You know what you have, they do not. But I still think that betting is a better play and believe it or not, it's more profitable. I had pocket 10-10's once on the button in a $10-20 hold-em game in my nearby local cardroom. There was one limper and someone raised right after him, I three bet it trying to drop the EP limper and play the hand heads up. (I was also trying to knock out the blinds). Well the BB called 3 bets, the EP called 2 more bets and the original raiser capped it. (what was the difference if he capped it I thought, my plan to get everybody to fold backfired anyway, so one more bet didn't concern me at all. I knew I had to hit this really strong. Well, the flop was 10-10-J. Quads! The BB, EP checked, the original raiser bet, I raised, the BB folded, the EP called two bets cold, the raiser re-raised me so I capped it. The turn was an Ace, and again, he led right into the betting. I raised, EP called, etc, etc,...the turn was capped! The river came a K, leaving the board to read 10-10-J-A-K. The only hand that could have beat me was the runner, runner royal flush. I knew neither one of them had that and if they did, "they were dead"!! (LOL). They just check/called me on the river. Anyway, the EP player turned up QQ for the straight, and the overly aggressive raiser showed me his AK. So you can never tell what kind of hands and drawing hands are out there, and who will be willing to bet and raise the flop anyway. I flopped quads and I knew that with a capped bet pre-flop, that at least one of them would take a card off on the flop, or if they had an overpair, they would just lead at this flop. The pot was quite hefty! Another quads situation I was in, not such a happy ending for I had pocket AA's on the button, ($10-20 game), and a very solid player in the BB held pocket 10-10's. There were several limpers and when it got to me I raised. The BB called and the flop came 10-10-J with two hearts.(yes, the same exact flop as the other one only the suits were different.) I'm pretty anal when it comes to remembering hands! Anyway, the BB bets the flop. I thought about for a second and hated his bet there, for one reason. (and only I was aware of this because this guy happened to be a friend of mine and I knew he wouldn't lead at the flop with anything less than three tens.) He respected my raises every time and I knew I should have thrown my AA's right in the muck, but I got stubborn. The girl after him, raised and I thought maybe I should take one more card, the pot was growing and there were still several of us in there ... What an idiot I was,I admit it! Well the turn brought no improvement for me except, I now had the runner, runner, "drawing dead", flush to hit for back up! Yup, I got there! Four hearts on the board and lucky me had two red Ace's. I got what I deserved, I KNEW my friend had me beat and did not want to check/raise me on a later round. He shook his head, and said ,"sorry man". But that's poker... 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Slow playing flopped quads, Don Quixote, 5. May 2003 13:23 | ||
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| Thanks, guys, I see the logic of betting now. In fact, I recall in one of my books that the author mentioned that no one would put you on a monster. I think one mistake I have made the few times I flopped quads was to show my hand because I just couldnt resist. One or more always said no wonder you didnt make any money, you should have slow played them. It just points up the fact that one shouldnt show their cards at all unless they have to. Thanks for the great advice and your own personal stories. Don Q. on 5. May 2003 12:11 4 POKER wrote: > ...Especially if the pot was raised pre-flop. The key to playing flopped quads is to > bet! Noone will put you on that hand because most players think it is correct to slow > play this hand where in essence your hand will be much more disguised if you bet the > flop and to even raise it if somebody else bets into you. With a raised pot and/or > multi-way action pre-flop, a lot of players will hang around to see if they can hit > an overpair on the turn or maybe back into a flush or something. The hand has so much > more deception when it is bet opposed to the check/call, check/raise play.(Especially > the check/raise). When someone checks and than they check/raise the turn, that almost > always screams out..."Nuts". > If the pot wasn't raised coming in, and there are just a few players involved, > depending on how tight or loose these players are, you might want to let one of them > take over with the bet, but if they are loose, go ahead and bet it. You know what you > have, they do not. But I still think that betting is a better play and believe it or > not, it's more profitable. > > I had pocket 10-10's once on the button in a $10-20 hold-em game in my nearby local > cardroom. There was one limper and someone raised right after him, I three bet it > trying to drop the EP limper and play the hand heads up. (I was also trying to knock > out the blinds). Well the BB called 3 bets, the EP called 2 more bets and the > original raiser capped it. (what was the difference if he capped it I thought, my > plan to get everybody to fold backfired anyway, so one more bet didn't concern me at > all. I knew I had to hit this really strong. Well, the flop was > 10-10-J. Quads! The BB, EP checked, the original raiser bet, I raised, the BB > folded, the EP called two bets cold, the raiser re-raised me so I capped it. The turn > was an Ace, and again, he led right into the betting. I raised, EP called, etc, > etc,...the turn was capped! The river came a K, leaving the board to read > 10-10-J-A-K. The only hand that could have beat me was the runner, runner royal > flush. I knew neither one of them had that and if they did, "they were dead"!! (LOL). > They just check/called me on the river. Anyway, the EP player turned up QQ for the > straight, and the overly aggressive raiser showed me his AK. So you can never tell > what kind of hands and drawing hands are out there, and who will be willing to bet > and raise the flop anyway. I flopped quads and I knew that with a capped bet > pre-flop, that at least one of them would take a card off on the flop, or if they had > an overpair, they would just lead at this flop. The pot was quite hefty! > > Another quads situation I was in, not such a happy ending for I had pocket AA's on > the button, ($10-20 game), and a very solid player in the BB held pocket 10-10's. > There were several limpers and when it got to me I raised. The BB called and the flop > came 10-10-J with two hearts.(yes, the same exact flop as the other one only the > suits were different.) I'm pretty anal when it comes to remembering hands! Anyway, > the BB bets the flop. I thought about for a second and hated his bet there, for one > reason. (and only I was aware of this because this guy happened to be a friend of > mine and I knew he wouldn't lead at the flop with anything less than three tens.) He > respected my raises every time and I knew I should have thrown my AA's right in the > muck, but I got stubborn. The girl after him, raised and I thought maybe I should > take one more card, the pot was growing and there were still several of us in there > ... What an idiot I was,I admit it! Well the turn brought no improvement for me > except, I now had the runner, runner, "drawing dead", flush to hit for back up! Yup, > I got there! Four hearts on the board and lucky me had two red Ace's. I got what I > deserved, I KNEW my friend had me beat and did not want to check/raise me on a later > round. He shook his head, and said ,"sorry man". > > But that's poker... > > 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Slow playing flopped quads, NiceFella, 5. May 2003 21:37 | ||
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| I agree with stdioh's reasoning. Here's my own .02. If you're first to go, I think you need to bet out. In fact I'd rather be under the gun here. I flopped quads three times last month. Every time I bet them strongly, and I'm always surprised how often I get multiple callers. Betting out can be read as protecting a weak hand, and it seems to actually encourage my opponents to put me on everything BUT trips or quads. I actually got check-raised last time I had quads! A flop with potential helps. Two to a flush or straight possibilities tends to keep players in, and lets me bet without scaring away all the fish. I am the type of player who will bet out if I have almost any piece of the flop, so this probably goes a long way towards getting callers. Realize that if someone else bets your hand for you, that's just as scary to the other players as if you bet it yourself. Plus, if someone bets on a bluff and then you call, they're not likely to bet or call again. YOU have to be the one who might be bluffing. By checking the flop and then betting the turn, you're hoping that the turn card will be enough of an improvement to your opponents' hands that they will call the full-sized turn bet, when they wouldn't have called the half-sized flop bet. As stdioh pointed out, improvement to their hand isn't likely, they may fear that the turn card improved your own hand, and their pot odds are now worse. Letting both the flop and turn get checked around is a big mistake. Many players that might call on the turn, while their hand still has potential, won't call on the river when defeat is obvious. And you need a big pot to get callers on the end. Bet early, bet often, build a pot and they will come. That's my .02. NiceFella | ||
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