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Server Time: 12/2/2008 6:55:03 PM PACIFIC |
 Bad streak or bad player?, Schuster, 2. May 2003 18:48 | ||
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| Lately I just can't book a winning session and I'm really looking for leaks in my game. My instinct says it's just cold cards, but I'll never know if I don't investigate. I play 1/2 and 2/4 games and I'm about -100 BB in the past 2 weeks. I haven't been playing long enough to know statistically with enough certainty if I'm a winning or losing player overall (only ~250 hours logged) but I am doing a little under 2 BB an hour average for that time. Here's a few points I thought might be trouble. 1) Small blind play. I'm wondering if I'm too loose about my play here. I've been calling in an unraised pot with suited three gappers (ie 6-9) down to 4-7, unsuited connectors and 1 gappers down to 5-7 and 5-6. KX suited, down to Q7s, and down to J8s. I've also been playing Ace-rag in this spot, more often if there are fewer people in the pot. Too loose or not loose enough? 2) Preflop raising vs calling. Other than the blinds, I believe my starting hand selection to be solid. But, there are a few hands I have trouble with. KQ, AQ, and AJ (suited and unsuited of each), along with ATs QJs and 10Js. In the process of looking for leaks, I reread Sklansky's Hold'em poker, and he noted in the preflop play section that if it is correct to raise with one hand in a particular group, it is usually correct to raise with all the hands in that group. My instincts tell me that this can't be correct according to the way I play now, but then again, that's why I'm looking for leaks. I will usually raise in any position except the blinds with AQ, suited or not. I also raise with AJ and KQ (especially the suited versions of AJ and KQ) in middle position. According to Sklansky, AQo is a group 3 hand, along with 10Js and QJs. I can't envision a raise under the gun being correct with these hands, so I wonder if I'm playing wrong with AQo. My UTG and UTG+1 raising standards any pair down to 10's, AK, and AQ. That's really about it, do I need to loosen up and raise with more hands here? 3) I *usually* am pretty sure about where I stand on the flop, whether I have the best hand, the best draw, and what other draws might be out there, along with other second best hands. One of my greatest strengths as a card player is reading rational people, the problem comes from trying to play against the irrational ones. I try to avoid putting the bad players on a hand -- it only seems to cause trouble. That said, I think I am costing myself some excess bets making river calls with hands like top pair top kicker after I have been leading the whole time. Most of the players I see at these tables are not good players by any means, but when you have nothing but that top-top hand on the button and all of the sudden bet into you on the river, what can you do here? I don't want to fold because I don't want them to think I can be bluffed off a hand. Also, there is the small chance that I do have the best hand, although it is somewhat remote. To me, I might as well be playing with the cards flipped up on the table when I hold something like top-top. It's obvious what I have, I'd think they pick up on it. Should I make these crying calls or save the bet? 4) Chasing gutshots when I have the pot odds to do so. A lot of people see the flop in these games, and they are also more willing to pay you off when you make a strong hand. I don't do it if there's a flush draw on the table, obviously. Should I even bother with hands like these or chuck them and curse a little when it completes once in a while? | ||
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| Re: Bad streak or bad player?, Schuster, 2. May 2003 21:01 | ||
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| > 3) I *usually* am pretty sure about where I stand on the flop, whether I have > the best hand, the best draw, and what other draws might be out there, along > with other second best hands. One of my greatest strengths as a card player is > reading rational people, the problem comes from trying to play against the > irrational ones. I try to avoid putting the bad players on a hand -- it only > seems to cause trouble. Oh boy, and does it cause trouble. I'm dealt Ah Ac UTG +1. UTG folds and I fire out a raise. Next player folds, and the following player makes it 3 bets. The button calls, and I make it 4 bets, they both call. The flop is 6h 2d 2h. I bet out and the original preflop raiser raises me. I think to myself, "There's no reasonable preflop raising hand that contains a 2, and the odds that he contains 66 are slim -- besides, I wouldn't think he'd make it 3 bets with 66 anyway." So I fire a raise back at him and he caps it. At this point, I figure he's on a pocket pair. The turn is the 5d. I bet out again, we get the same sequence as last time and the betting is capped. My eyes are widening the whole time about my aces beating his pocket pair. The river is a heart and I bet and call his raise. He flips over Q2. He reraised me before the flop with Q2. This is the first time I openly berated someone for bad play, and boy, did I go off. I lost a ton of bets assuming this player was at least somewhat reasonable. I guess them's the breaks. I sat out for about 5 minutes, came back, and caught a few good hands and made most of my loss back, but I still think I should have lost less. One of the biggest ironies is that not 5 minutes later, I held Q2 in the big blind and he held that AA. Of course, I hit top pair and paid him off the whole way. Sigh! Lee | ||
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| Re: Bad streak or bad player?, Schuster, 2. May 2003 21:13 | ||
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| I suppose I should add that (since I'm sure someone will point it out if I didn't) looking back, my play on the turn wasn't spectacular either. I should have considered that he very well could have had that 2. I think I would have played the flop the same way, then bet out the turn and called his raise, then check/called the river if I were in the same situation again. Ok, I think I've replied to myself enough, so have at it! | ||
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| Re: Bad streak or bad player?, 4 POKER, 2. May 2003 22:15 | ||
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| I wouldn't call you a bad player, just a new player who may not understand the importance of position and hand strength . There are so many good books that can help you with these topics. I will try to be helpful and cover some of the difficulties you are experiencing right now. FULL GAME Small Blind: #1. Your small blind play. Not loose enough? How much looser can you get than playing 4-7? Q-X suited, KX suited J-9 suited , 5-6 suited and even10-8 suited are playable from the small blind ,any pair is playable from that spot as well, as long as there was no raise. You have to play very carefully out of the small blind and be willing to get away from your hand cheaply if you don't flop something really strong. You have bad position so you must be a lot more cautious and your play should be more conservative on the flop. Example, you're holding Q-8 suited, you put in the extra half a bet, trying to hit a flush or maybe even two pair. The flop comes up Q 10- 6 rainbow. The correct play would be to check and fold. You have real kicker problems here and the board is a little too coordinated for your holding. That is what I mean by being conservative and getting out cheaply. You have to realize that calling a bet on the flop with your hand will lead you into loosing many big bets in the long run. If the players acted weak, then you can try and bet the turn in hoping that they'll fold. But your first choice should be to check the flop and then fold if someone bets. 2. Don't think that because there are so many players in preflop that it makes it correct for you to call with rags, 4-7, 3-6, etc., these hands are bad, and take note to all those players that you'll be trying to beat now. This has nothing to do with pot odds and don't try to justify that by making a bad call with a really bad hand. This has to do with making a mistake and turning it into a bigger and more costly mistake. The more we convince ourselves in to playing really bad hands 'cause we think the pot odds are there, the more apt you will be to taking a bad hand and compounding your losses even more. 3. Defending your small blind for a raise. If the raise comes from an EP player, than his raise is probably legitimate and your hand has to be very strong in order to call. A-J, and A-10 are not strong enough hands to call a raise with out of the small blind. You still have kicker problems here and the fact that you're holding an Ace will prove to be less important and have less value if you are faced playing this hand against an UTG raiser. (A-Q is playable, but nothing lower than that, suited or not; if you wind up playing your hand heads up, the fact that you are suited will not make that much of a difference.) Hands like Q-10 suited look real pretty, but when a player raises and they are not in steal position, your correct play again, would be to fold. It is so very important that you understand this... Hands that you may raise with are not necessarily hands that you can call a raise with. Example, You have good position, no limpers, and you fire in a raise with A-10. That's a legitimate raise given the situation and your position. However, to call a raise with A-10 is bad play. And if a really solid and tight player raises, calling his raise with A-J would be bad play as well. Say you have a small to medium pocket pair in the small blind. Everyone folds to the button, who raises. He is more apt to be in steal position and will raise with a vary of holdings, but your hand is playable and you should re-raise him to try and get the big blind out and play this hand heads up. Yes, the button may very well have a "real" hand, but a small pair like 6-6 will play much better heads up and you should give yourself the best chance possible in achieving that goal; knock out the big blind, it's worth the extra bet here. You have to focus and look to where the raises are coming from before you enter the pot. Hands that play good against a steal position raiser may not play well at all against an UTG or MP raiser. PRE-FLOP PLAY There are certain types of hands that play well if they are played under the right conditions. J-10 plays very well in late position with many callers.(but not for multiple bets pre-flop). This hand wants a lot of volume because you're trying to get the best odds possible if you make the straight. A-10 is playable if 1. You can limp in cheaply, or 2. You are in steal position and are able to raise with it. But it does not play well when faced with a raise. K-Q suited. Good holding, but you should be limping in with this hand opposed to raising with it. If you are faced with only one raise, then you can call with K-Q suited, but if the raise comes from a player who is a total rock and hasn't played a hand in three days, then your play would be to fold, and don't even concern yourself with the fact that it's suited. Passive vs. Aggressive games 1. If your game is passive you'll be able to play a lot more of your medium drawing hands from early positions. (J-10, Q-J, K-J) because you probably won't be forced to call a raise so even though you might be out of position, knowing that the hand will only cost you one bet the majority of the time, makes these hands playable. 2. If the game is aggressive then these same holdings will not be playable from an early position because you will be facing multiple raises the majority of the time and you will be costing yourself too much money by limping in with them in the first place, and you are now faced with kicker problems if you do flop a pair. The betting will be too heavy for you to continue with these holdings. Hope this helps. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Bad streak or bad player?, mroban, 3. May 2003 14:17 | ||
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| This was one of the best replies I have ever read. One question 4 Poker - I would even argue that AQ is unplayable against 2 preflop raises against good players (or even one against one very conservative player). | ||
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| Re: Bad streak or bad player?, 4 POKER, 5. May 2003 22:48 | ||
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| on 3. May 2003 14:17 mroban wrote: > This was one of the best replies I have ever read. One question 4 Poker - I would even > argue that AQ is unplayable against 2 preflop raises against good players (or even one > against one very conservative player). Thanks mroban, Not to get confused here, I had said that A-Q is playable from your small bling if the pot is raised, yes, but only for one raise. I wouldn't call 2 raises pre-flop with this holding... especially from "Mr. Rock"! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Bad streak or bad player?, Schuster, 3. May 2003 14:45 | ||
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| > 3. Defending your small blind for a raise. If the raise comes from an EP player, > than his raise is probably legitimate and your hand has to be very strong in order to > call. A-J, and A-10 are not strong enough hands to call a raise with out of the > small blind. You still have kicker problems here and the fact that you're holding an > Ace will prove to be less important and have less value if you are faced playing this > hand against an UTG raiser. (A-Q is playable, but nothing lower than that, suited or > not; if you wind up playing your hand heads up, the fact that you are suited will not > make that much of a difference.) I'm with you on this part, but it doesn't seem like my opponents are. Often times a middle position player will raise and I will throw away my A10, only to find they have something like Q10, or worse. I was playing in a game today where a middle position player raised, and the cutoff reraised. I threw away my KQ in the small blind. It ended up that the middle position raiser had AQ and the cutoff had A10. I've come across a player who would raise with any ace, regardless of position, and I wasn't happy when I tossed a hand like AJ to his early position raise only to see he has A4 or something. After playing at a table for a while, I can take notice of who understands positional concepts, but when I first sit down, I usually end up losing money I could have made by assuming my opponents are solid players. I usually only play 1/2 or 2/4, so the limit probably affects this greatly. Is there anything I can do about this? > It is so very important that you understand this... Hands that you may raise with > are not necessarily hands that you can call a raise with. > Example, You have good position, no limpers, and you fire in a raise with A-10. > That's a legitimate raise given the situation and your position. However, to call a > raise with A-10 is bad play. I think I'm with you on this. Extending the concept though, I read in a book (I may have been Krieger's book, but I can't remember exactly) that skilled players in solid games will often lower their early and middle raising requirements in order to gain more information about opponents who call their raise. Is this something that is actually employed? Is this a technique worth learning (as cautiously as possible) for the rare occasion I do sit in a really tough game? I was thining last night about a possible example. Say you're sitting in a solid game and you're dealt something like AJ or A10 UTG. In a game like this, would it be worth a shot to raise? I'm not sure, but I would have to assume that players would call you with a hands like AQ, but would make it 3 bets with AK (not sure on this part). If you hit that ace, would it be worth a shot to move a solid player off a hand like AQ, making him believe you have AK? Also if you hit a J or 10 as top pair, your hand is a lot more well disguised against an opponent who may pay to see the turn with a hand like AQ. Lastly, if you do get "caught" and have to show the hand down, you're likely to get more action on future early position raises. Is this a reasonable thought process, or am I trying too hard? > You have to focus and look to where the raises are coming from before you enter the > pot. Hands that play good against a steal position raiser may not play well at all > against an UTG or MP raiser. Like I said, it seems that a lot of my opponents have no concept of position. I've seen people limp in with hands like A10 on the button after it's been folded to them, and I've seen them raise with them UTG. Perhaps I should just play really tight until I get a feel for everyone at the table. > Hope this helps. > > 4 POKER It did, and I appreciate the time you took to write it. Thanks. :) Lee | ||
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| Re: Bad streak or bad player?, 4 POKER, 3. May 2003 18:40 | ||
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| Maybe before you actually sit in the game you should just watch it for awhile.That might help you to feel the players out without having to wonder if their solid players or just wreckless ones. I still would advocate that you should play your cards correctly. If someone in EP raises with A4, and then he gets reraised by A-10, if your holding A-J, the correct play would still be to fold. I know it may be frustrating to see two other players in the hand with a worse starting hand than you had, especially if you would have won the pot, but sometimes you give up a little (what could have been profit), for knowledge. If they want to raise and re-raise with garbage, let them; it doesn't mean that you should call with garbage though. What you may give up in the early part of the game $$, will make up for itself later on. (make sure you keep notes on the players). You will have plenty of opportunity to punish these types of players when you really do have the goods and if you play a strong hand against this type of player, you can do a lot of check raising 'cause they'll pay you off, too. They just don't know that raising their types of hands is a bad play, they really do think that A4 in EP against a full field is an acceptable raise... but you know it isn't, and that's all that matters. When players don't understand the purpose and value of their position, you can only use that to your advantage. You can try to isolate the overly- aggressive types, and you can probably get a weak-tight player to make more lay downs against you. We'll always have to make some adjustments when we first sit down, and sometimes you'll have to readjust your play later on in the game, too, but if you play YOUR position flawlessly and make very few mistakes pre-flop, you will definitely earn for sure. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Bad streak or bad player?, Swagman, 3. May 2003 05:20 | ||
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| I would agree with 4 poker it sounds to me that your are a better player then most you are up against at that level of play. Sounds to me that you maybe running cold at the moment, but I would use this time to experiment with other option. I too have been having the same problem for more then a month. So i at first tried to tightened up. But its common for me not to see two face card together in a couple of hours of play lately. So that did'nt work because the only thing that was seeing money at the table was the dealer and the chute. So I loosened up a tad and play suited and even 1-gapped low connectors in late position. That expriment was a little telling and I probably will continue mix it up with low card for now on. Taking even a preflop raise on a 5,6 suiter for now (as long as im sure its not gonna be 2-bets) i also liked how your not dominated in future when a all low hand comes and the others remember you holding that 3,5 of spades. But that Idea still wasnt working because everytime I got a striaght I was beaten by a flush. I had second best hands one right after another. So I decided, dangit, if Im gonna be beaten everytime becuase im holding second best hands, Im gonna try to see the river as cheaply as possible. So thats what I did, I checked if I had an alright hand, called if I was bet into, and only bet or raised if I had the nutz. The problems with that thinking is I was alwayz on the defensive, and the other people just had they way with me, and I lost alot of money with that expriment too. So then I decided to play a more aggrasive game. If I held AK i was gonna make whoever was betting against me pay, by golly. Sure that Ace would come aboard but so would 2 clubs; and you knew of course the King would come on the river but you also knew that it was a club. So then i Decided to expriment.... Well to make a long story short. If you wanna be a winning poker player. You need to learn to adapt. Try new things. Use the ones that have been a winner for you and forget about the ones that have caused you to lose. Nothing comes easy. You think poker genious is any different? Not that I would know, but I'd imagine that its like anything else in life. | ||
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| Re: Bad streak or bad player?, mroban, 3. May 2003 14:33 | ||
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| Hey Swag, rather than checking and calling on the turn, why don't you try betting it out, even if you have nothing? That is, if you are going to check and call (not in check/fold situations of course) you are going to put the money into the pot anyway, and since there is a decent chance of winning the hand right there (or representing the better hand on the river) I think you find more success that way. Esp in online rooms where loose players bet anything preflop and try to bluff later on. Easy to spot these guys. They often will fold on the turn if you try this. This really changed my game when I started doing that. | ||
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| Re: Bad streak or bad player?, Swagman, 3. May 2003 19:23 | ||
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| Well thank you. I would agree that betting outright is often the best option. But the general gist of my post was an attempt to help Schuster with his slump. My message, which I evidently failed at miserably was to let him know that when you on tilt, this is a perfect time for you to mix your game up and experiment with other options. I'm sure he was seeking practical advice such as should he call a 2 bet pre-flop with AQ. Ok. So here is my practical piece of advice for playing a 2/4 hold'em game. Respect position. Go in late with Multiway hands, this is because in this limit game your gonna be called down to the river no matter what you have most of the time, so you wanna catch as big a pot as you can if your facing river rats. The converse to this is also viable. When your going in early position with Power cards don't take them too far if the board is threatening, because those flushes and straights will come, I repeat they will come and destroy you because theirs gonna be someone holding 2,Q of spade practically everytime. Also with power cards don't thing a raise is gonna chance anyone off a flush or st8 draw cuz at that limit nobody is gonna fold if they even have the smallest of outs. | ||
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| Re: Bad streak or bad player?, Snorbolus, 3. May 2003 11:00 | ||
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| Schuster, I play in the low limits. One thing that I have noticed is that most of the bad players who I encounter are far more willing to call bets and raises with shitty cards than they are to put in their own raises under any circumstances. Some don't even like to bet. Of course it depends on the player but, in general, I find that bad players who are putting in raises are not trying to bluff. I am constantly amaized by what calling station type players will call with. However, when they start banging in their own raises it almost always means that they have the goods. My advice is: (a) If a calling station type player is getting frisky, don't rule out any possible holdings (b) Don't worry too much about them trying to bluff you in future if you fold now. Often they won't be thinking about what cards you have or how you play at all. If they decide to try a bluff it will more likely be because they missed whatever it was they were drawing to but they really want to win the pot anyway. Usually they won't consider the other players in the pot at all. Snorbolus > One of my greatest strengths as a card player is > reading rational people, the problem comes from trying to play against the > irrational ones. I try to avoid putting the bad players on a hand -- it only > seems to cause trouble. That said, I think I am costing myself some excess bets > making river calls with hands like top pair top kicker after I have been leading > the whole time. Most of the players I see at these tables are not good players > by any means, but when you have nothing but that top-top hand on the button and > all of the sudden bet into you on the river, what can you do here? I don't want > to fold because I don't want them to think I can be bluffed off a hand. Also, > there is the small chance that I do have the best hand, although it is somewhat > remote. To me, I might as well be playing with the cards flipped up on the > table when I hold something like top-top. It's obvious what I have, I'd think > they pick up on it. Should I make these crying calls or save the bet? | ||
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| Re: Bad streak or bad player?, stdioh, 5. May 2003 09:26 | ||
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| Think about taking a vacation from poker. I'm really enjoying my time away from the cardroom at the moment and I feel healthy and youthful right now. Also, if you're not sure what is going on and are in the middle of retooling your game, I would suggest a stint of really tight play. Folding your cards every hand costs you very little. I figure it would cost me about $55/hour at the 10/20 in terms of session fee and blinds if I folded every hand - almost 3 big bets. If I play only 10% of the hands that I am dealt in a night then I'm looking at nice tight play and about 3 hands per hour. In those three hands, I should be able to make at least $50. It is the premium hands that provide the lion's share of the money you make at the table and allow you to pay your session fee and blinds. The other hands are the cream that you take home. If you try only playing the premium hands and your big blind for a while, it will be a very cheap way of getting back on the horse. | ||
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| Re: Bad streak or bad player?, NiceFella, 5. May 2003 22:20 | ||
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| I agree with most of the feedback you have received so far. My basic advice would be to tighten *way* up. Don't play hands that lead to second best all the time. Qxs and Jxs are just pain waiting to happen. I never play them, even on the small blind. You're only 20:1 to make a flush, and you're frequently going to have second best with them. Because you can't be confident of having the nuts, even when you win with them you can't collect the maximum profit. They also make for crappy, kickerless pairs. Ace-rag offsuit is a trouble hand, plain and simple. Sure, you can get in cheap on the small blind, but you can only lose money with it. Against a large field, you're almost certain to be up against a better ace. Against only one or two players, what happens when you flop an ace, bet, and get called? Will you bet again? Are you outkicked? Should you check and call? You're adrift at sea because your hand sucks. I wish I had a dollar for every time a rookie limped in with Axo ... oh wait a minute, I DO! Small unsuited connectors can be a big leak. You're a 9:1 dog to flop something decent like two pair, trips, or a straight draw. I just steer clear of these hands. Yeah, you can limp on the small blind, but proceed with extreme caution. And even if you do flop your draw, now you've got to get home with it, and not chop it with someone else or lose to a better straight or a flush. Ugh. Save your money for the good cards. Personally I think the Sklansky starting hand groupings are total hogwash. JTs and AQo are completely different hands, and there's nothing to be learned by putting them in some sort of group, or in thinking that all the hands in a certain group play the same way. Rely on fundamentals for your starting hands: with JTs, you want a lot of callers and no raisers. With AQo, you want very few callers, which you can accomplish by opening with a raise. But if someone else has already raised and reraised, then someone has a better hand than you, and you're probably drawing dead, and should muck. Don't rely on some cheat sheet lookup table to tell you what to do. Preflop play is not automatic. Start thinking about what hands your opponents might have right from the start. A poker game is a long haul. I rarely sit a table for less than six hours. This is plenty of time to learn the habits of the players -- who raises with junk, who always limps regardless, etc. It's only over the long term that skill overcomes luck, and you will be able to use your knowledge of your opponents' habits against them. If you are playing hit and run poker, you will continue to have difficulty reading your opponents. I always recommend Ciaffone and Brier's "MIddle Limit Holdem Poker". The concepts in this book I think apply well in low-limit as well. The starting hands they recommend are extremely conservative, but with excellent explanation. You'll play very few hands, but you'll win the ones you play. Yeah, you'll muck winners, but not as often as you fear. And you'll stay well clear of trouble. In general I think this book can do a lot to improve your game. It did mine. Better luck, NiceFella | ||
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