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Server Time: 12/2/2008 6:34:30 PM PACIFIC |
 Alternative strategies on playing big Pairs?, spartan51, 2. May 2003 11:07 | ||
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| Hi all, Had AA, KK, & QQ all busted last nite playing 1/2 online. AA hand: I'm in EP and raise all fold except 1 MP and SB & BB call. Flop come K xx. (rags) Checked to me I bet, SB & BB calls. Turn brings another rag Checked to me, I bet SB calls & BB folds River comes 6. SB checks, I bet, SB raises , I call. SB shows K6 for 2 pair and takes pot. KK hand: EP bets out, I raise, 2 or 3 other callers plus EP. Flop comes A K x. EP checks, I bet, two callers plus EP calls turn comes rag. EP checks, I bet 1 caller,then EP raises, I reraise, other caller folds and EP caps it and I call. River comes rag. EP bets out and I raise and we cap it. EP shows AA for trips and takes the pot. QQ hand: In EP with QQ and I come out raising again. Couple of callers plus SB & BB. flop comes T x3. SB bets, BB calls , I raise and SB calls. (I put SB on something like JT, QT, etc.) turn: rag. SB checks, I bet, SB calls. River: rag. SB bets, I raise, SB calls. SB shows T 3 and takes pot. My questions: 1. Did I play any hand poorly? 2. Is it a useless exercise in LL online poker, trying to put a player on any hand, given the fact most players will see and call raises with any 2 cards pre-flop? 3. Does anyone play large pairs differently online? I don't have the stats to prove it, but I feel that I am losing money on big pairs.( Think I will purchase pokertracker.) It seems that when I raise I still can't run players with junk and they end up beating me, and when the flop does hit me, for example, I have AA, KK, or AK and raise and the flop matches me up and I bet out most them will fold and I don't get paid off. Please help! | ||
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| Re: Alternative strategies on playing big Pairs?, Jav, 2. May 2003 11:16 | ||
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| Sounds like you just ran into some bad beats. In low limit I would proceed with caution with QQ if there are raises at the table with all rags showing. But I don't know what else you could do with AA and KK... | ||
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| Re: Alternative strategies on playing big Pairs?, Easy E, 2. May 2003 11:27 | ||
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| where's the bad beat in his AA beating your KK on an AK flop? | ||
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| Re: Alternative strategies on playing big Pairs?, Jav, 2. May 2003 11:46 | ||
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| I guess it's not so much a bad beat, but it was a hand he was expecting to win. But that happens. I'm sure most of us have flopped a set of A's before and lost to a gutshot straight on the river. You can help alleviate that by not slow-betting your set, but it wouldn't help you in this situation. Keep at it.. | ||
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| Re: Alternative strategies on playing big Pairs?, spartan51, 2. May 2003 11:28 | ||
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| I agree, in that I definitely feel that these are bad beats, but this keeps happening to me over, and over and over again. I am talking of 25,000 plus hands of online play and this has occurred to me more times than I would like to remember. That is why I ask, does anyone play big pairs differently online? | ||
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| Re: Alternative strategies on playing big Pairs?, Easy E, 2. May 2003 11:35 | ||
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| "I definitely feel that these are bad beats" No, that implies that they were a bad thing. Except in a short-term manner (to your bankroll), they are a GOOD thing- it's a game you should make money from long term. " but this keeps happening to me over, and over and over again. I am talking of 25,000 plus hands of online play and this has occurred to me more times than I would like to remember." It's easy to remember those beats. How many times did you bet top pair and get called through and win? Get better stats before you make these kinds of statements- you'll just confuse yourself | ||
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| Re: Alternative strategies on playing big Pairs?, Easy E, 2. May 2003 11:33 | ||
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| What exactly would you want to do differently, other than try to get a sense of the playing patterns of your online opponents so you could try to sniff out the two-pair situations? #1- MAYBE you could have saved a bet on the river (by checking, or folding to the raise) but would have been tough to do without a lot of player knowledge. Let him KEEP calling you all the way with top pair-crap kicker and see how much you profit overall. #2- Your KK gets "cracked" by AA and you are asking.... what? #3- Again, anyone who flops two pair and lets you off cheaply all the way through SAVED you 2+ bets. Be happy, go get'em again with the next big pair. Not much you CAN do, except slow down on the river a little if you're sure you won't get a call if you're beaten. Variance is higher in these games, but you should make out in the end. Don't sweat it- it's actually a good sign (1 and 3, anyway) | ||
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| whoops, typed a little fast, Easy E, 2. May 2003 12:12 | ||
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| "if you're sure you won't get a call if you're beaten" SHOULD have been "won't get a call if you're NOT beaten" 4Poker's answer was good, and Don Q's stats should illuminate what I was saying. | ||
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| Re: whoops, typed a little fast, 4 POKER, 2. May 2003 12:30 | ||
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| on 2. May 2003 12:12 Easy E wrote: > "if you're sure you won't get a call if you're beaten" SHOULD have been "won't get a call > if you're NOT beaten" > > 4Poker's answer was good, and Don Q's stats should illuminate what I was saying. > Easy E, I agree in what you had to say as well. Let me point out or clarify my response. After I read it, I felt that I needed to break down the term "more understandable" players. When I said he might have a better chance playing against "more understandable" players, I was referring to players who have a clue, ones that you could read easier, BUT not ones that are strong players, just ones that will make things a little easier for you. I do think that one can earn from a loose game, but I think if your first starting out, (he was playing $1-2), maybe a more stable game would be better. Maybe I'm being too conservative here, I just wouldn't want a new player to get down on himself too much just because he took so many bad beats, or should I say tough beats. 4 POKER (I'll probably be better off if I don't re-read this one too... I'd hate to have to respond again!!! LOL) | ||
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| Re: whoops, typed a little fast, Easy E, 2. May 2003 12:38 | ||
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| I understood it as you intended it.... hopefully your explaination helped spartan, if he didn't translate it. You and I seem to have the same idea, about the play AND not letting the short-term results screw up his game. Your advice about stability and predictibility were right on IMO | ||
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| Re: whoops, typed a little fast, 4 POKER, 2. May 2003 12:53 | ||
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| on 2. May 2003 12:38 Easy E wrote: > I understood it as you intended it.... hopefully your explaination helped spartan, if he didn't > translate it. > > You and I seem to have the same idea, about the play AND not letting the short-term results screw > up his game. Your advice about stability and predictibility were right on IMO Oh good, After reading all of the responses, I think the only person who had a hard time translating my post... was ME ! Oh well, that's what happens to me when I ramble on. LOL 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Alternative strategies on playing big Pairs?, Don Quixote, 2. May 2003 11:45 | ||
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| Spartan51, I have played 567 hands @ .50/1. and 186 at $1./2. at Empire/Party Poker at your table. My poker tracker shows your known starting hands for pairs as seeing flop with pocket pairs as 18 times. You won 13 times of those 18. That is pretty good, isn't it? Anyway, that number of hands is not necessarily indicative of what your averages are for a large volume of hands. BTW, those numbers are for all pairs. The best money you will ever spend in poker expenditures is the $25 for Poker Tracker. No, I am not a shill for them. Just a happy camper that has seen his win rate go up over 200%. Poker Tracker works at Empire/Party, Paradise and Poker Stars. I wish Ultimate Bet would configure their software so it would be compatible with PT. I would almost guarantee their player base would increase significantly. Hope this helps. Don Quixote on 2. May 2003 11:07 spartan51 wrote: > Hi all, > > Had AA, KK, & QQ all busted last nite playing 1/2 online. > > AA hand: I'm in EP and raise all fold except 1 MP and SB & BB call. > > Flop come K xx. (rags) > > Checked to me I bet, SB & BB calls. > > Turn brings another rag > > Checked to me, I bet SB calls & BB folds > > River comes 6. > > SB checks, I bet, SB raises , I call. > > SB shows K6 for 2 pair and takes pot. > > > KK hand: EP bets out, I raise, 2 or 3 other callers plus EP. > > Flop comes A K x. > > EP checks, I bet, two callers plus EP calls > > turn comes rag. > > EP checks, I bet 1 caller,then EP raises, I reraise, other caller folds and EP > caps it and I call. > > River comes rag. > > EP bets out and I raise and we cap it. > > EP shows AA for trips and takes the pot. > > QQ hand: In EP with QQ and I come out raising again. Couple of callers plus SB > & BB. > > flop comes T x3. > > SB bets, BB calls , I raise and SB calls. > > (I put SB on something like JT, QT, etc.) > > turn: rag. > > SB checks, I bet, SB calls. > > River: rag. > > SB bets, I raise, SB calls. > > SB shows T 3 and takes pot. > > My questions: > > 1. Did I play any hand poorly? > > 2. Is it a useless exercise in LL online poker, trying to put a player on any > hand, given the fact most players will see and call raises with any 2 cards > pre-flop? > > 3. Does anyone play large pairs differently online? I don't have the stats to > prove it, but I feel that I am losing money on big pairs.( Think I will purchase > pokertracker.) It seems that when I raise I still can't run players with junk > and they end up beating me, and when the flop does hit me, for example, I have > AA, KK, or AK and raise and the flop matches me up and I bet out most them will > fold and I don't get paid off. > > Please help! | ||
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| Re: Alternative strategies on playing big Pairs?, TKarrde, 2. May 2003 12:28 | ||
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| Does Poker Tracker require much work? I might have to switch from UB. Is using Poker Tracker like using spell checker? It helps you out tremendously but doesn't improve your skills any. ???? TK | ||
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| Re: Alternative strategies on playing big Pairs?, 4 POKER, 2. May 2003 12:05 | ||
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| You played your hands correct and aggressively. You simply ran into a "Cold Deck". It happens. There are so many different crappy hands that the lower limit players will enter a pot with, especially on-line(noone can see them playing these awful cards), but you can't just sit there and check call holding top pair, a set or an overpair (as mentioned in your post), just because you fear that one of them is holding K-6 or 10-3. These players were awful and if I had a hard time reading too many of them, I would change my game and find one that is a little more stable, and readable. You can find a game where the players are playing "more understandable" cards so you can get a better feel as to where you stand with your hand. The difference in playing in a "circus" game (like the one you were in) opposed to playing in one where the players actually have a "clue" is, your swings will not be as high or as often,(grant it, the pots may not be as huge either), but your strong hands will hold up more and if you can play a solid and aggressive game like you seemed to be playing last night, than I think you'll stand a BETTER chance to earn in the long run. These "wild and off the wall" games will usually have one or two results for you; you'll either score big or you'll lose the maximum. Not a very settling feeling or stable one for that matter. I think you should chose games where you can use your "reads" and the strength of your hands and knowledge to profit from. Build your bankroll up slowly and correctly. If you really prefer these overly loose games, then be prepared for the more frequent bad beats and higher fluctuations. Practice your table selection based on what YOU FEEL is going to profit you the most, and make you feel "ok" again with poker... not only will your earn increase... So will your confidence level. Just stay focused at all times, forget about the bad beats, and just play your best game, at all times. Better luck to you. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: Alternative strategies on playing big Pairs?, TKarrde, 2. May 2003 12:12 | ||
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| What limits were you playing at? | ||
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| Re: Alternative strategies on playing big Pairs?, spartan51, 2. May 2003 12:30 | ||
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| Thanks to all who have responded so far. Yes, Don I definitely will be getting pokertracker. What screen name do you play under if you don't care to say? Thanks again to 4Poker, your advice/remarks always seem to be right on the mark to me. I am quickly becoming a disciple of your poker insights. You could write a book. | ||
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| Oh great!, Easy E, 2. May 2003 12:39 | ||
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| As if his? ego needed the help.... | ||
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| Re: Oh great!, 4 POKER, 2. May 2003 12:55 | ||
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| on 2. May 2003 12:39 Easy E wrote: > As if his? ego needed the help.... ??????? | ||
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| Re: Oh great!, TKarrde, 2. May 2003 13:26 | ||
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| Is your masculinity being questioned? | ||
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| Re: Oh great!, 4 POKER, 2. May 2003 14:02 | ||
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| on 2. May 2003 13:26 TKarrde wrote: > Is your masculinity being questioned? Mine? ... I don't know. I don't think so. What do you think? | ||
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| Re: Oh great!, TKarrde, 2. May 2003 14:13 | ||
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| Was trying to goad you. I'm thinking he didn't want to be presumptuous. Especially with good players like Wren wandering the board. :) | ||
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| DING! DING! DING!, Easy E, 2. May 2003 21:57 | ||
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| we have ourselves a winner, folks... | ||
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| Re: DING! DING! DING!, 4 POKER, 2. May 2003 22:23 | ||
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| on 2. May 2003 21:57 Easy E wrote: > we have ourselves a winner, folks... Who won? | ||
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| Re: Alternative strategies on playing big Pairs?, Don Quixote, 3. May 2003 09:38 | ||
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| Spartan, I play on Empire as jimdham and on Party as OldPokerDog. Your stats also indicate that you were winning 4.73 BB's in the $1.2. level and losing 4.87 in the .50/1. level. This is not anywhere near enough hands to reach any kind of a conclusion, but it might show what happens when playing the loose micro limit games. My stats for a few thousand hands show that I have done much better at .50/1. than at $1./2, which maybe indicates that I have done a better job of adjusting to the suck-out play at the lower limits. Funny thing about the lower limit: Playing two games at same time yesterday on Party and lost $25 in about an hour on one table and won $27 in that same hour on the other table. You will find all kinds of players in these games, from fishies to sharks. Poker Tracker has a Summary Tab that shows all players' win/loss rate in my database. I have been thinking along counter intuitive ideas like setting at tables with the better players instead of the fishies. I can hold my own with them and even win, and it is a lot more fun matching wits with better players because it doesnt cost as much if you lose :-) I've gotta stop now and have another cuppa java. I love this forum. Hope this helps, Spartan. Give me a shout when you see me online. Don Quixote (an oldpokerdog whose real name is jim d..........ham. on 2. May 2003 12:30 spartan51 wrote: > Thanks to all who have responded so far. > > Yes, Don I definitely will be getting pokertracker. What screen name do you play under > if you don't care to say? > > Thanks again to 4Poker, your advice/remarks always seem to be right on the mark to me. I > am quickly becoming a disciple of your poker insights. You could write a book. | ||
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| Re: Alternative strategies on playing big Pairs?, SendMoney, 3. May 2003 13:30 | ||
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| I think your betting strategy for the premium pocket pairs is way wrong. In general you should limp in with big pocket pairs because you don't want to give away the strength of your hand. On the flop you should either flop top full house or quads if you want to bet and or raise people. This is so you will have the highest certainty of winning if people do call or raise your bets. If you do flop top 3 of a kind you should check and call until you make a full house because you don't want to pay someone with a possible straight or flush or a strong straight or flush draw more than you have to if you don't make your full house and they make their straight or flush because in that case you'll lose. If you flop lower than top 3 of a kind you should probably check and just call since someone may have higher 3 of a kind, in which case you'll have to get 4 of a kind to beat them. If your cards flop higher than the board cards you should probably just check, hoping to make top 3 of a kind later on, if you bet you might get raised by someone who already made a 3 of a kind on the flop, and who wants to pay them more than you have to? If you don't make 3 of a kind and there is a card on the board that is bigger than yours, like an A when you have pocket kings, you should probably fold to a bet because you have to assume most people who bet have top pair and if they have pocket aces then you'll need not 1 but 2 kings to beat them and that if very unlikely. I realize this betting strategy is a bit conservative, but like they say in Rounders "Get your money in the pot when you have the best of it, protect it when you don't." | ||
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| Re: Alternative strategies on playing big Pairs?, SendMoney, 3. May 2003 13:43 | ||
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| Previous post = joke. I do believe that strategy is better than some however. | ||
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