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Server Time: 12/2/2008 6:21:33 PM PACIFIC |
 pot odds, tron, 1. May 2003 17:40 | ||
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| Can someone give me an example of pot odds compared to your hand. i.e. 3 players in and u have a open end draw. what is the correct move? tks | ||
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| Re: pot odds, Big_Slick, 1. May 2003 17:50 | ||
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| As a general rule (someone correct me if I'm wrong), whenever you've got an open-ended straight draw or a flush draw, and you're up against 2 or more opponents, call the bet on the turn. If the board pairs however, you need to be careful. I'm not sure of the exact odds, but this rule is easy to remember. I'm sure someone else here can give you the math. | ||
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| Re: pot odds, ross, 1. May 2003 19:20 | ||
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| pot odds are the odds you are getting from the pot that you take into consideration with your draw. pot odds are everything in limit. in no limit you have to take into consideration both pot odds and effective odds. here is an example you have a flush draw which means your drawing odds with 2 cards to come is about 4.2 to 1, with 1 card to come about 4 to 1. In a limit game if there is $20 in the pot and the bet is $5 you are getting better than 4 to 1from the pot , so you should call. you should only call No Limit game same situation, same answer say there is $20 in the pot and someone bets $10, if they have alot of money in front of them and you think he will pay you off then call. how much you think you can win if you hit your hand is effective odds. That's why it is sometimes correct to call big bets with a gut-shot draw because if you hit your hand you probably wont be put on a hand like that and you can win a huge pot, maybe even bust somebody | ||
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| Re: pot odds, 4 POKER, 1. May 2003 19:30 | ||
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| There are so many things to consider before you even think about your pot odds, so please bare with me on this one. If there is multi way action preflop, if the hand was raised preflop, what position you are in with this drawing hand, the texture of the game and the quality of players in the game, are they loose, aggressive, tight, passive? If you have flopped the open-ended straight, are you using both of your cards to hit it or just one? If you are only using one card, then many times you will be drawing to a straight that is not the nuts.(also, there's a better chance of having to split the pot if you are only using one card.) And if you've flopped a flush draw, are you drawing to the nut flush? With several players taking the flop, you must be sure that whether you're drawing to a straight or a flush, that you are drawing to the nuts. With 2 or 3 opponents your second nut flush draw may be the nuts if you hit it. Make sure if your playing this draw against a few opponents that your straight draw is one that will be made by using both of your hole cards. This is simply because you will have more cards to hit it which will increase your pot odds, verses drawing to what might be a longshot. Also, if you flop an open-ended straight but have overcards to go along with it, then you will have even more outs to the hand and may not need to hit the straight. I'm going to assume that you were talking about using both of your cards. If the hand is 3 way action, you're holding J-10, and the flop is 8-9 X or K-Q x, then you are drawing to the nuts. You will be getting very good pot odds to continue with this draw especially if there is not a flush draw out there as well. If the betting was heavy preflop, and it becomes heavy on the flop, you probably won't be able to raise the flop in hoping that everyone will fold and you can just win the pot right there uncontested. And if the turn card brings the flush, you might be drawing dead if you make your straight. You must be drawing to the nuts in order to continue, don't call a bet on the turn with a straight draw if the board now contains a flush, NOT with heavy betting. Remember, when you speak of pot odds and how you should proceed with these drawing hands, makes a big difference to how the hand was played out preflop. ie, if there were a few limpers in with no raises and you flopped the open-ended straight draw, you can actually win the pot outright by a simple bet on the flop without ever having to improve; and another point I'd like to bring up is, if there weren't any raises preflop and you held J-10, if the flop comes up 8-9 x, you might have a better chance in winning the pot right there with a single bet or raise. If you don't make the straight on the turn at least you have two overcards which will give you more outs if you need them. But, if you have the same hand, and the flop comes up K,Q, x, then you might have a harder time winning the pot outright because many players hold on to high cards. You also have to realize how others perceive you as well, for if the flop does come up with high cards, they may put you on a top pair and fold anyway. (all these things have to be considered). Another good point is, being able to put your opponent on the same draw as you. If you play it strong against that opponent, and you miss, you should go ahead and bet the river for he can't call you with no hand. So don't be afraid to bluff on the river sometimes,many pots are won this way. But, if the pot was raised preflop you're probably going to have to hit something. If you're in early position, you can use the check and call option in hoping that others behind you call as well, which will now increase your pot odds if you hit it. If you bet out in early position with this drawing hand and the original raiser is right behind you, he may very well raise you now which might drive out the rest of the field only to leave you heads up with a player who's probably holding a better hand then yours, whether it be a pair or overcards. If your in late or last position, and are acting after the original raiser, when the flop is bet, you can raise it here for value in case you hit or you can just call. If you think you might be able to get the turn card for free by raising, then go ahead and raise the flop. However, many tough, solid players are all to used to this type of semi-bluff and may raise you right back, making you pay to hit that draw. You can also use the check and raise play as well; this adds more deception to your hand and if you do hit it, you will probably be paid off in more spots then one. Good luck, 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: pot odds, Big_Slick, 1. May 2003 19:38 | ||
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| 4 Poker, That answer was so good, I actually printed it out for reference. I got a strange look from my wife, but it's worth it. Great stuff as usual. | ||
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| Re: pot odds, 4 POKER, 1. May 2003 19:56 | ||
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| on 1. May 2003 19:38 Big_Slick wrote: > 4 Poker, > > That answer was so good, I actually printed it out for reference. I got a strange look > from my wife, but it's worth it. > > Great stuff as usual. Thank you. And thanks for allowing me to explain it using the "long version" ! 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: pot odds, tron, 1. May 2003 20:39 | ||
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| Outstanding answers. thanks much! | ||
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| Re: pot odds, tron, 1. May 2003 20:42 | ||
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| 4 poker, Again great info. Lots of well thoughtout process. off the subject but in Atlantic City, does merv griffen casino still have poker? And Taj was great for the stud games back in 90's. tks again | ||
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| Re: pot odds, 4 POKER, 1. May 2003 21:30 | ||
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| on 1. May 2003 20:42 tron wrote: > 4 poker, > > Again great info. Lots of well thoughtout process. > > off the subject but in Atlantic City, does merv griffen casino > still have poker? And Taj was great for the stud games back > in 90's. > > tks again The Merv Griffen casino which was The Resorts, used to have a great poker room but it is no longer there. It closed about 8 years ago. The Taj still has great stud games and hold-em games as well; and with close to 70 tables to choose from, you're bound to find a good game! Tace care, 4 POKER > | ||
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| Re: pot odds, shorn, 2. May 2003 04:55 | ||
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| 4 POKER- Great answer. There is one thing I will add that i think you left out. If you are drawing to the nut straight and the flop contains a two-flush, you want to be getting better odds to continue then the 5 to 1 that you would normally need because you can hit your straight and still lose. Same thing applies to drawing to the nut flush with a pair on the board. These situations are not always (IMHO) automatic folds; but, you must be getting much better odds to continue with these hands. Steve | ||
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| Re: pot odds, stdioh, 2. May 2003 07:49 | ||
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| It depends on how much money is in the pot (pot odds) and how much more you think you can get out of them if you make your hand (implied odds). Calculating pot odds is easy. How many bets are in the pot? How many players are in the hand? How many cards are yet to come? How many outs do you have? Example, let us say that your two opponents enter preflop and you come in on the big blind. Let us say that there are 3.5 small bets in the pot right now. You flop an up/down draw, so there are 8 cards which improve you. So you have an 8/47 chance of getting there on the turn. Roughly a 1/6 chance. If you don't then you have roughly a 1/6 chance of getting there on the river. Thus you have slightly less than a 1/3 chance of getting there on the turn or river.(11/36) If you get there, there is a chance that you are still beat, but if you win, you are likely to get more bets into the pot too. The former should detract from your pot odds while the latter adds to your implied odds. Now if there no obvious draws that beat you and you are drawing to the nuts then with 4 opponents you could be making bets and building a pot for value, since you have a 1/3 chance of winning. With only three though, you are not a favourite here. But you can still call a bet. Let's say that it is bet and then called and you are last to act. Now there is the original 3.5 bets in the pot, plus another 2 bets and you have to pay one bet to see a turn. Thus you could win 5.5 bets or lose 1. Since you have a 1/3 chance of hitting, this is worth calling. Now, if you don't hit on the turn you will have 3.25 big bets in the pot, but only a 1/6 chance of hitting on the river. Let us say that it is bet again and called. Now there are 5.25 bets in the pot and you have to pay one bet to see the river. Pot odds aren't enough to make you call here, but if you know that when you make your hand you can get even one more bet in there then calling is ok. If you have position your chance of getting 1 or 2 bets is decent here and if you are out of position your chance of getting 0 or 1 bets is more likely. Basically the bettor might bet out ahead of you and you can raise him or he might check-call. If you are out of position then he might check after you (if you are trying to checkraise) or he might just call you if you bet out. Chances are very slim that he will raise. But you've been dragging along another player too, so there is a chance that the other player could come in and you'd get two bets or even 4 bets. So now you need to look at the strength of your straight too...if you make this draw will you have the nut straight? Could your opponent be drawing to a worse straight? If one card will give you both straights and you will have the best of it then a call is required. If you are drawing to the idiot end of the straight then a fold is something to strongly consider (depending on your opponents). The long and short of it is that you don't have pot odds here, but you have pot odds if you assume that one more bet is coming. At most low limit games people have a desire to "keep you honest" and pay you off on the river, so I would generally call here if my opponents were at all likely to call me down without holding a premium hand. Of course in most low limit games you'll have enough money in preflop and on the flop to make your pot odds for a straight clear cut. It is almost always correct (pot odds wise) to draw for an up/down, but remember that if there is a flush draw on board you have probably lost 2 of your 8 outs and that changes things a lot. If the card comes to complete the flush and your hand then even if you have a winning hand your implied odds will go way down because people will be scard of the flush *AND* the straight and your own fear of the flush will also prevent you from jamming money into the pot. I hope that helps to sort things out a little. | ||
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| Re: pot odds, Snorbolus, 2. May 2003 11:01 | ||
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| Don't forget that your bet on the flop does not buy you a 1/3 chance of hitting (unless the turn is checked around). If you miss on the turn you are likely to have to pay 2 small bets to carry on drawing. It is safer to assume that you will have to pay 3 small bets to get to the river. For open ended flush and straight draws I usually look for at least 4:1 immediate odds on the flop - on the assumption that, when I hit, I can get payed off on the river often enough to make up the shortfall. Snorbolus > Thus you could win 5.5 bets > or lose 1. Since you have a 1/3 chance of hitting, this is worth calling. | ||
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| Re: pot odds, stdioh, 2. May 2003 13:28 | ||
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| I generally look at it this way: If I make my draw on the turn then I get added implied odds which more or less counterbalance this effect. If I want pot odds to hit my draw on the turn without worrying about the river then I am going to miss out on a lot of hands that are worth playing and hurt myself in the long run. Of course, like everything else, it depends. | ||
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