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 tournament pros, tron, 29. Apr 2003 18:42 | ||
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| I constantly see these names on tournment winners phil helmuth, scotty g., lanye flck, daniel negr. etc... What separates them from a above average tournment player. Has anyone played againist these pros? | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, JasonHoldEm, 29. Apr 2003 19:01 | ||
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| What separates them from the rest? Nerves of steel. . .Quite simply, they're willing to do what the other guy won't. jHE | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, jdsalinger, 29. Apr 2003 19:18 | ||
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| I've got to agree in tourney's I take a couples of chances early then just sit back and let others knock each other out. Good simple strategy for a guy who simply wants to place and get paid. These are the guys who can save their money and not call a big hand with little chance of winning, and later use that money in later rounds and make you laydown a hand with nothing. The ultimate play the players type. Plus they've got a big bank roll so it's a little easier to pull one of those moves :) | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, 4 POKER, 29. Apr 2003 19:10 | ||
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| A friend of mine happens to be an excellent tournament player, his name is Phil Ivey. And when I ask him how he does it, he just says... "i'm just lucky, I guess". I think there's more to it then that but he hasn't told me it yet! He does play a LOT of hands and I think he has a tremendous read over his opponents. He's been playing professional poker since he was 18, 3 years under the legal gambling age, and I just think he's a "natural", whether it be in tournaments or in ring games... he's an amazing player. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, TKarrde, 30. Apr 2003 07:00 | ||
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| Phil Ivey is a friend of yours??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? Way too cool. I've been researching him on the internet this week. So where do you guy play at? TK | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, 4 POKER, 30. Apr 2003 12:31 | ||
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| on 30. Apr 2003 07:00 TKarrde wrote: > Phil Ivey is a friend of yours??!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? > > Way too cool. I've been researching him on the internet this week. > > So where do you guy play at? > > TK Atlantic City is our home turf ,however we do not play in the same games. He plays MUCH higher limit then I do, but yes, he is still a friend of mine. (we used to play in the same game sometimes but before I knew it he was gone !!!!) $$$$ 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, TKarrde, 30. Apr 2003 12:50 | ||
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| What kind of games does he play in? You? I'm still a beginner's beginner but I just about choked last time I went to a casino and played some $2-$4HE and saw the table behind me with a bunch of old guys all with HUGE stacks of green. Huge stacks. I asked my neighbor what game they were playing .... $50-$100 Stud. It completely boggled my mind. And this is just a Midwest riverboat. I keep saying it... but I gotta get to Vegas. Do they let people watch the big $$ games out there? (Or in AC?) TK | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, 4 POKER, 30. Apr 2003 13:29 | ||
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| on 30. Apr 2003 12:50 TKarrde wrote: > What kind of games does he play in? You? > > I'm still a beginner's beginner but I just about choked last time I went to a casino and played > some $2-$4HE and saw the table behind me with a bunch of old guys all with HUGE stacks of green. > Huge stacks. I asked my neighbor what game they were playing .... $50-$100 Stud. It completely > boggled my mind. And this is just a Midwest riverboat. I keep saying it... but I gotta get to > Vegas. Do they let people watch the big $$ games out there? (Or in AC?) > > TK Hey TK, Generally, Phil will play in the highest game available when he plays in A.C., which can be anywhere from $75-150 to $400-800. Once in a blue moon they will spread a $2,000 -4,000 game but I haven't seen him play in that game yet, not saying that his bankroll wouldn't allow it... He plays all games regardless of the limit, he will play $400-800 stud and he will play $400-800 hold-em; it really just depends on which game he feels he can make the most $$ from.(just the way we all would think when chosing a game.) As far as others being allowed to observe, in A.C. the high limit games $75-150 and above are in a closed off area- they are in the poker room but they're enclosed by a "rail". You can still walk through there if you chose but most players don't want spectators standing too close and I think I can speak for all the limits when I say that, not just the higher ones. I was out in Vegas last year, and Phil was playing in a $300-600 Razz game and I sat right down next to him and watched him play, he didn't mind at all. So I guess it really depends on the player himself. I play MUCH lower limits then Phil, and I wouldn't want anyone watching me, not even him...go figure!!! I play at limits that are usually around the $30-60 level, but I also play higher sometimes and I also play lower... it depends on the game, my mood, whatever. I can sit in a $5-10 hold-em game and be just as satisfied if I'm playing good and making a little money. To me, money is money, no matter what and it all adds up. I just try and chose the best game there is for me to accomplish that. I will say this, I don't play hold-em at a limit that is over $20-40, but I will sit down in a $75-150 high-low split game. I Don't feel comfortable playing high limit hold-em, the fluctuations are too high for me and I really think that my Omaha 8 and stud 8 game are a little bit stronger. I enjoy hold-em and do very will with it, BUT there are many, many great hold-em players out here but not as many good high-low players. So you see, I always try to play in a game where I think I might have an advantage. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, TKarrde, 30. Apr 2003 14:22 | ||
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| So what are the chances of you snagging me an autograph?? :) Need to grab it now before he is famous!! TK | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, 4 POKER, 30. Apr 2003 15:59 | ||
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| on 30. Apr 2003 14:22 TKarrde wrote: > So what are the chances of you snagging me an autograph?? :) Need to grab it now before he is famous!! > > TK I think he would laugh but would be more than willng to give me his autograph for you. I will be leaving to go out west in the next couple of weeks but I will see him in Vegas. Let me know if you're serious about it and you can figure out a way for me to mail it to you. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, TKarrde, 1. May 2003 06:13 | ||
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| Thanks! That would be great. You going out west for the WSOP? Email me for my address sbirrel@kimball.com. I'd be happy to pay for any postage, etc. Thanks, TK | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, 4 POKER, 1. May 2003 10:09 | ||
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| on 1. May 2003 06:13 TKarrde wrote: > Thanks! That would be great. You going out west for the WSOP? Email me for my address sbirrel@kimball.com. I'd be > happy to pay for any postage, etc. > > Thanks, > > TK no problem, and check your mail box. 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, Roy Cooke, 30. Apr 2003 10:27 | ||
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| I have met Phil Ivy on once, briefly. But I have seen him at the tables. Look at the level of concentration in his eyes! This guy is NOT lucky...but the real deal! Roy Cooke on 29. Apr 2003 19:10 4 POKER wrote: > A friend of mine happens to be an excellent tournament player, his name is Phil Ivey. > And when I ask him how he does it, he just says... > "i'm just lucky, I guess". > I think there's more to it then that but he hasn't told me it yet! > He does play a LOT of hands and I think he has a tremendous read over his opponents. > He's been playing professional poker since he was 18, 3 years under the legal > gambling age, and I just think he's a "natural", whether it be in tournaments or in > ring games... he's an amazing player. > > 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, 4 POKER, 30. Apr 2003 12:38 | ||
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| on 30. Apr 2003 10:27 Roy Cooke wrote: > I have met Phil Ivy on once, briefly. But I have seen him at the tables. Look at the level > of concentration in his eyes! This guy is NOT lucky...but the real deal! > > Roy Cooke I know that Phil is a great player. He has a gift, he was a good player when he first started out and he was still a teenager. He just happens to be modest, which is one of the things that makes him a cool guy- he has never changed since I've known him and so many players that reach his status quite often do! Another thing that is sometimes rare with excellent tournament players is that Phil's ring game is just as good, he's an all around successful poker player. 4 POKER > > on 29. Apr 2003 19:10 4 POKER wrote: > > A friend of mine happens to be an excellent tournament player, his name is Phil Ivey. > > > And when I ask him how he does it, he just says... > > "i'm just lucky, I guess". > > I think there's more to it then that but he hasn't told me it yet! > > He does play a LOT of hands and I think he has a tremendous read over his opponents. > > He's been playing professional poker since he was 18, 3 years under the legal > > gambling age, and I just think he's a "natural", whether it be in tournaments or in > > ring games... he's an amazing player. > > > > 4 POKER | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, Nathaniel Brous, 30. Apr 2003 00:13 | ||
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| on 29. Apr 2003 18:42 tron wrote: > I constantly see these names on tournament winners phil helmuth, scotty g., lanye flck, daniel negr. etc... What separates them from a above average tournment player. Has anyone played againist these pros? Hey tron (and all interested). You may find some of what you are looking for at this location. http://www.pokerbooks.com/inter.htm Although in most cases you won't get specifics, you will find that there are many underlying recurrent themes within these excellent players lives. A few notables you will probably recognize, include but not limited to, Brenes, Brunson, Cloutier, Ferguson, Flack, Hamilton, Liebert, Preston, Sexton, Tomko and Ulliot. This page is on my favorites list. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, shorn, 30. Apr 2003 05:23 | ||
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| I think the #1 difference between a top tournament player (a Champion) and a good player is that in most cases, the top player can read pretty close to where he/she stands in a hand and what the chances are of winning it from that point on. A better way to say it is that because of their reading ability, they play each hand with closer to perfect information than many of us which allows them to make the world class laydowns and calls that many of us wouldn't. We all can get booksmart but it is the intangibles that win the big $$. | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, Risky Business, 30. Apr 2003 08:11 | ||
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| You almost had me. I agree that the play of cards is secondary when it comes to excelling at this game. Contrary to the term "intangibles" though, I feel it's very real.........It's the read of the opponents and table that separates the big time home game winner with the player that can sit in a casino and constantly win. This isn't luck or an intagible, it's a skill that's learned and perfected. That being said, I'm looking forward to getting wiped across the felt next Thursday when I play in the Mirage Thursday night $120 buy-in No Limit tourney. I'm hoping that since the WSOP isn't holding any No-Limit games before or after that day, that some of the names we all talk about wide-eyed might come play the most expensive No-Limit tournament of the night. on 30. Apr 2003 05:23 shorn wrote: > I think the #1 difference between a top tournament player (a Champion) and a good player > is that in most cases, the top player can read pretty close to where he/she stands in a > hand and what the chances are of winning it from that point on. A better way to say it is > that because of their reading ability, they play each hand with closer to perfect > information than many of us which allows them to make the world class laydowns and calls > that many of us wouldn't. > > We all can get booksmart but it is the intangibles that win the big $$. | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, shorn, 30. Apr 2003 08:51 | ||
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| I think we were saying the same thing. Intangibles to me are things that you can't learn in a book (like reading players). I am not saying that you can't learn how to do it; however, I am saying that it takes years and years of experience and some god given ability to do it under intense pressure. I know for a fact that I could play for 100 years and never be as good a reader of players as Stuey Ungar was. Some of it you are born with... | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, Nathaniel Brous, 30. Apr 2003 09:13 | ||
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| Hey shorn. I agree with your sentiments. However I am confused as to why you replied to my post rather than tron's. While the web address I sent includes the words "poker books", it is simply a direct access to a group of interviews with poker players. I really enjoyed reading the articles. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, shorn, 30. Apr 2003 09:18 | ||
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| I was just following the thread. You are right...I should have responded to Risky B's. Sorry about that! i will check out that site you recommended, thanks. | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, stdioh, 30. Apr 2003 09:20 | ||
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| The good player reads books written by the top player. The student can surpass the master, but not by only reading the master's words - he needs his own experience in the master arena. | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, tron, 30. Apr 2003 18:10 | ||
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| thanks Nat, great bios. | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, stdioh, 30. Apr 2003 09:18 | ||
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| The only 2 things different between me and somebody like Phil Hellmuth is that he has a much bigger bankroll and that he is a much better poker player :) | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, shorn, 30. Apr 2003 09:19 | ||
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| Yeah and unfortunately that last statement is pretty important. :) | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, Nathaniel Brous, 30. Apr 2003 09:28 | ||
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| on 30. Apr 2003 09:18 stdioh wrote: > The only 2 things different between me and somebody like Phil Hellmuth is that he has a much bigger bankroll and that he is a much better poker player :) Four differences stdioh. 3. Control of your emotions. 4. Modesty. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, stdioh, 30. Apr 2003 09:30 | ||
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| I consider both of those things to be subsets of being a better poker player. And I would say that those two things are the difference between Phil and just about any poker grunt like yours truely, humping away at the 10-20 trying to chip off a little cash here and there. | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, Nathaniel Brous, 30. Apr 2003 09:37 | ||
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| on 30. Apr 2003 09:30 stdioh wrote: > I consider both of those things to be subsets of being a better poker player. <snip> If they are, than by that rational you are hands down a better player than Phil. God help the world when you start playing tournaments. But seriously, tournaments require a completely different set of skills. Phil is an incredible HE tournament player, but considered good to have on the table to some of the best cash players in ring games. Of course, I am just repeating things I have heard (no first hand knowledge.) - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, TKarrde, 30. Apr 2003 10:38 | ||
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| Does Phil have #4??? ;) TK | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, Nathaniel Brous, 30. Apr 2003 10:52 | ||
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| on 30. Apr 2003 10:38 TKarrde wrote: > Does Phil have #4??? ;) TK Yes...but his last name is Ivey. lol - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, stdioh, 30. Apr 2003 10:57 | ||
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| The best players don't have modesty. Being arrogant (and justifiably so) is something to strive for in poker. And Phil has great emotional control when it matters - he plays his hands well. Now when he chucks his cards after his aces get cracked, that's a different matter. You might say it's not cricket, but nobody can be a winning pro like Phil without being able to control his own emotional state. | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, Nathaniel Brous, 30. Apr 2003 11:12 | ||
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| on 30. Apr 2003 10:57 stdioh wrote: > The best players don't have modesty. Being arrogant (and justifiably so) is something to strive for in poker. <snip> > nobody can be a winning pro like Phil without being able to control his own emotional state. ACKKKKK!!!!! Please don't perpetuate that MYTH! Howard Lederer. Phil Ivey. Chris Ferguson (who just won his fifth bracelet) are all incredible players who are also considered some of the nicest and emotionally controlled people in the game. - Nathaniel Brous | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, shorn, 30. Apr 2003 11:15 | ||
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| I agree. Arrogance is way over-rated. You can have confidence cand show it without being a tool about it like he tends to be. His articles in CP make me want to vomit sometimes too, especially when he is whining about some beat that he took. Anyway, I think he would be much more successful if he had a little less of a chip on his shoulder. | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, Risky Business, 30. Apr 2003 11:17 | ||
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| I'm more intimidated by the silent type that keeps bleeding me dry quietly, rather than the loud mouth that tells me how great he is. I just wait for the 2nd guy out back. on 30. Apr 2003 11:15 shorn wrote: > I agree. Arrogance is way over-rated. You can have confidence cand show it without being a tool about it > like he tends to be. His articles in CP make me want to vomit sometimes too, especially when he is whining > about some beat that he took. Anyway, I think he would be much more successful if he had a little less of a > chip on his shoulder. | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, stdioh, 1. May 2003 09:05 | ||
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| Don't get me wrong and equate arrogance with rudeness. I'm thinking of characters like Amarillo Slim. The guy would tell you he was the best at anything there was and then he would back it up, but he was also courteous. You'd better believe that Phil Ivey is arrogant - he knows how good he is. I don't think he ever says, "I shouldn't play in that game over there - those guys are too good for me." But he backs this up, but crushifying his opponents. So possibly I should have said that good players tend to have an abundance of self-confidence rather than calling it arrogance. And yes, good players have emotional control at the table in the hand. Some of them have good emotional control outside the hand (Ivey) and some do not (Hellmuth), but all do have their hope and fear and revenge in check during the play of the hand. | ||
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| Re: tournament pros, tron, 30. Apr 2003 17:50 | ||
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| great posts! thanks much. | ||
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